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Author Topic:   White Privilege
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 16 of 276 (766469)
08-18-2015 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by ramoss
08-18-2015 11:21 AM


Re: Reverse Discrimination?
They did an experiment, and put out a huge number of identical resumes for job applications. The only diffidence between set one and set two was the one set had a typical European sounding name , the other had one that was distinctly black. ...
Or hispanic: one resume for Joe, and an identical one for Jose, only Joe gets called for interviews.
Sometimes I wonder what the results would be if everyone that met the selection criteria were then put in a random lottery to choose the lucky worker would not end up with equally capable workers and a more diverse workforce, no affirmative action needed.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by ramoss, posted 08-18-2015 11:21 AM ramoss has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by NoNukes, posted 08-18-2015 2:46 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 08-19-2015 2:21 AM RAZD has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 276 (766472)
08-18-2015 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by RAZD
08-18-2015 2:24 PM


Re: Reverse Discrimination?
if everyone that met the selection criteria were then put in a random lottery to choose the lucky worker
Sure. That way I could miss out on hiring both the top Howard Law School grad and the top Duke Law School grad that I interviewed.
Maybe we should reserve this procedure for hiring stock clerks.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by RAZD, posted 08-18-2015 2:24 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 276 (766505)
08-18-2015 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by ringo
08-18-2015 12:21 PM


Re: Nonsense In = Sociology Out
In other words, you haven't a clue.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ringo, posted 08-18-2015 12:21 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(4)
Message 19 of 276 (766507)
08-18-2015 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
08-18-2015 1:44 PM


Re: some privilege
I think Phat is trying to bring to the table is that middle class and working class whites hardly feel privileged ...
... as compared to whom, the rest of white society? Does a white person not feeling the white privilege of white society mean they do not already benefit from that privilege?
Jury Duty
Other than the blatantly open racism shown in the article the interesting white privilege hidden in the text is that blacks are well under-represented in the jury pool to begin with.
Why?
Because the pools are drawn from voter rolls and the white structures are set to discourage blacks from registering to vote.
Given the history and culture how would you feel being black facing an all white jury?
A white person in this country has no such concerns. When a white person goes to trial are they going to see or feel the white privilege from which they have just benefited? Do you see or feel this privilege you benefit from in being white? You didn't even know the benefit was there as you took advantage of it.
It doesn't matter that a white person doesn't feel or see their privilege in this white society. This problem is NOT about the white man's experience. It is the black experience, the brown experience, the female experience in this society that define white privilege and male privilege.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
Edited by AZPaul3, : Hey! No one called me on "to who" vs "to whom"? Y'all asleep?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 08-18-2015 1:44 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 08-18-2015 7:52 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 45 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-19-2015 9:19 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 20 of 276 (766519)
08-18-2015 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by AZPaul3
08-18-2015 7:03 PM


Re: some privilege
Yes, I granted that white privilege is no doubt a reality, but it's unfair in the extreme to make people guilty of sins against others due to a privilege they are completely unaware of, did nothing to benefit from or used to anyone else's disadvantage, especially those who had a lot of disadvantage to struggle with themselves due to the condition they were born into. There is deep injustice in this even if there is also injustice in the white privilege itself. I think you need to acknowledge this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by AZPaul3, posted 08-18-2015 7:03 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by AZPaul3, posted 08-18-2015 9:25 PM Faith has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 276 (766520)
08-18-2015 7:53 PM


Getting the Facts Straight
If folks want to talk about unequal employment opportunities and economic success, then perhaps we should be talking about 'Asian privilege':

Love your enemies!

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 08-18-2015 8:00 PM Jon has not replied
 Message 24 by Omnivorous, posted 08-18-2015 8:29 PM Jon has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 22 of 276 (766523)
08-18-2015 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Jon
08-18-2015 7:53 PM


Re: Getting the Facts Straight
Add Jewish privilege to that since they are known to be great achievers. I never knew any blacks or Jews or Asians growing up, a few Hispanics but otherwise only whites, but when I did meet blacks I was made to feel guilty for sins I never committed against them. Not so with Asians or Jews, who were clearly high achievers and didn't need to make me feel responsible for them.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Omnivorous, posted 08-18-2015 8:23 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 25 by RAZD, posted 08-18-2015 8:33 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 26 by Theodoric, posted 08-18-2015 8:33 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 38 by Heathen, posted 08-19-2015 7:23 AM Faith has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 23 of 276 (766528)
08-18-2015 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
08-18-2015 8:00 PM


Re: Getting the Facts Straight
Faith writes:
but when I did meet blacks I was made to feel guilty for sins I never committed against them. Not so with Asians or Jews, who were clearly high achievers and didn't need to make me feel responsible for them.
What's your explanation for the difference?

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 08-18-2015 8:00 PM Faith has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(3)
Message 24 of 276 (766529)
08-18-2015 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Jon
08-18-2015 7:53 PM


Re: Getting the Facts Straight
I take it you perceive the higher Asian-American figures as the most salient point?
I see a chart of male privilege.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Jon, posted 08-18-2015 7:53 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Jon, posted 08-18-2015 9:13 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 25 of 276 (766530)
08-18-2015 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
08-18-2015 8:00 PM


Re: Getting the Facts Straight
... , but when I did meet blacks I was made to feel guilty for sins I never committed against them. ...
You were made to feel uncomfortable for acts you unknowingly benefited from that were committed by others.
... Not so with Asians ...
What about Native Americans?
... or Jews ...
Israel was set up due to guilt over letting the holocast happen without protests from the various governments that refused to take in refugees in the early days, the US included.
Our world and our society has been built on the sins of our forebears, and some have benefited and some have not.
As we increasingly reach towards becoming a more just society, a "more perfect union," some of the unjust actions of the past need acknowledgement and in some cases some form of compensation. Canada has done much in the way of establishing semi-autonomous indigent nations within their boundaries, the US not so much (recent violation of native lands for pipeline construction for example). Hence the recent appeals to the UN.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 26 of 276 (766531)
08-18-2015 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
08-18-2015 8:00 PM


Re: Getting the Facts Straight
Wow!
You are truly stunning in your lack of self awareness. The amount of prejudice and racism in only 3 sentences is overwhelming.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 08-18-2015 8:00 PM Faith has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 27 of 276 (766533)
08-18-2015 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
08-17-2015 6:57 PM


Re: Reverse Discrimination?
Hi Phat,
... I don't know whether you intended this topic to be a serious discussion of the social definition and application of white privilege or whether the irony of the cartoon was the focus.
What the cartoon shows to me is that the white character is completely unaware -- as most white folk are -- of how much white privilege is ensconced in society to the point that it seems "natural" that the white side of the board starts first (why not a coin toss to see who kicks off and who receives?)
The black character lives with that aspect every day.
The difference in perspective is due to their different experiences.
... Quite naturally I saw it as an attack on me...sort of a reverse discrimination type of thing, and still feel that way, admittedly, from time to time. ...
Do you feel entitled to maintain the status quo even though it is not just?
Enjoy
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 08-17-2015 6:57 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 08-19-2015 2:36 AM RAZD has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 28 of 276 (766535)
08-18-2015 8:57 PM


When discussing white privilege in the U.S., I'm often reminded of the simplest demonstration of the Buddhist notion of infinite suffering--no matter how far one may fall from misfortune, we can always imagine how it could have been worse: falling further, falling from a greater height.
Any white person who has faced any kind of struggle in life should need only a moment's thought to see it would have been tougher if faced as a black person.
But once you do hit that particular bit of denial, there's not much left to say.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 276 (766537)
08-18-2015 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Omnivorous
08-18-2015 8:29 PM


Re: Getting the Facts Straight
I posted the graph not to point out anything 'salient' but to show how meaningless it is using terms like '[insert group name here] privilege'.
Is preferential treatment for white men undoubtedly a reality in certain situations? Of course.
Is this sufficient to explain the drastic difference between white and African American performance on many meaningful metrics related to quality of life?
Probably not.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Omnivorous, posted 08-18-2015 8:29 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Omnivorous, posted 08-18-2015 9:52 PM Jon has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(5)
Message 30 of 276 (766539)
08-18-2015 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
08-18-2015 7:52 PM


Re: some privilege
...but it's unfair in the extreme to make people guilty of sins against others due to a privilege they are completely unaware of...
The sin, here Faith, is being unaware. To go through your life so callously blind to what this white-privileged society does to "them" is our crime.
You have no excuse for being unaware. Blacks, Hispanics, women have been screaming for decades about the subtle institutional inequities in this white-man's world. This is yet another call for you to FIND OUT! Unintentional bigotry, closeted unacknowledged racism, just continues the suffering in all of society.
If you remain unaware then you cannot help change the society through your vote, your conversations, your blog. If you do not stop, look and listen, if you do not learn, if you do not become aware, then you perpetuate the injustice. You are the oppressor whether it's active or not, whether you know it or not. We all are.
There is deep injustice in this even if there is also injustice in the white privilege itself. I think you need to acknowledge this.
What I acknowledge is that you have not appreciated your position and remain a part of the problem.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 08-18-2015 7:52 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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