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Author Topic:   White Privilege
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 282 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(3)
Message 46 of 276 (766580)
08-19-2015 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Faith
08-19-2015 9:17 AM


Judge Not
I'm sorry, liberal fingerpointing is disgusting. Your accusatory attitude is nauseating. Who said anything about ignoring anything, that's your busybody liberal mindset working overtime. I haven't said a word about my own opinion of the problems of white privilege, what I'm talking about is the Big Brother attitude, making stuff up to accuse people of. That's what you're doing. Yuck, blech. Liberals don't know how to do anything but accuse accuse accuse, pick an issue and accuse somebody of it. Put themselves in judgment over others.
And no, I do not do that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 08-19-2015 9:17 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 08-19-2015 1:01 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1442 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 47 of 276 (766587)
08-19-2015 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Dr Adequate
08-19-2015 11:00 AM


Re: Judge Not
You don't know how to distinguish the one thing from the other either, and you also show the very liberal mindset I'm talking about in making up another personal fault to accuse me of. Why can't anyone here tell the difference between judging personal guilt versus ideological error or any of the other distinctions you all regularly fail to make. How tiresome, how futile.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-19-2015 11:00 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-19-2015 1:59 PM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 48 of 276 (766591)
08-19-2015 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by RAZD
08-19-2015 8:03 AM


Re: some privilege
RAZD writes:
But you are privileged. Even just walking through a store without being followed by an employee to see if you are shoplifting is privilege - you are not automatically assumed to be a priori
I just picked this quote from RAZD because it seems to summarise the position of others here and for once I'm closer to Faith's feelings about it than others seem to be.
I think it's wrong to equate being able to go about our business without oppression as a privilege and that it is somehow negative. Surely this is a state of civilisation that we all aspire to?
The fact that there is a section of society that feels they have not achieved this state is a matter for concern and action by those that have, but it's not something that those that have achieved it should be criticised for.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by RAZD, posted 08-19-2015 8:03 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by nwr, posted 08-19-2015 2:10 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 51 by Stile, posted 08-19-2015 2:36 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 65 by ramoss, posted 08-19-2015 9:02 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 88 by RAZD, posted 08-22-2015 8:01 AM Tangle has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 282 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(3)
Message 49 of 276 (766594)
08-19-2015 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
08-19-2015 1:01 PM


Re: Judge Not
You don't know how to distinguish the one thing from the other ...
I wonder who does. Besides you of course.
Why can't anyone here tell the difference between judging personal guilt versus ideological error ...
* coughs *
I'm sorry, liberal fingerpointing is disgusting. Your accusatory attitude is nauseating. Who said anything about ignoring anything, that's your busybody liberal mindset [...] making stuff up to accuse people of. That's what you're doing. Yuck, blech.
So, that was an impersonal analysis of an ideological error, and I am Marie of Romania.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 08-19-2015 1:01 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 08-19-2015 5:15 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(3)
Message 50 of 276 (766595)
08-19-2015 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Tangle
08-19-2015 1:31 PM


Re: some privilege
I think it's wrong to equate being able to go about our business without oppression as a privilege and that it is somehow negative.
The negative is that it is white privilege, where it should be human privilege.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2015 1:31 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2015 3:54 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 51 of 276 (766598)
08-19-2015 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Tangle
08-19-2015 1:31 PM


Re: some privilege
Tangle writes:
The fact that there is a section of society that feels they have not achieved this state is a matter for concern and action by those that have, but it's not something that those that have achieved it should be criticised for.
You're right.
But I don't think that's what's supposed to be meant by "white privilege." (I think RAZD has it wrong).
I mean, not totally wrong, just missing one more step.
The last step being something like what you stated: "...and they don't take any concern or action for those who don't have it (and possibly even disdain)."
Sort of like irony.
10 000 spoons when all you need is a knife isn't in itself ironic... it needs that extra little step of something like "...and I worked in a knife factory all day before I got home to this situation."
White privilege carries that extra step of being white and in those situations... and then also not caring (or even being against) helping others gain that same "basic non-stature."
Or... maybe that's just what I think it should be

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2015 1:31 PM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 410 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 52 of 276 (766600)
08-19-2015 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Jon
08-18-2015 6:40 PM


Re: Nonsense In = Sociology Out
Jon writes:
In other words, you haven't a clue.
Sure I do. As I said, "... we don't often hear black people scoffing at the idea of white privilege." Since you scoff at the idea of white privilege, that's a clue that you're white.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Jon, posted 08-18-2015 6:40 PM Jon has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 53 of 276 (766603)
08-19-2015 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by nwr
08-19-2015 2:10 PM


Re: some privilege
Nwr writes:
The negative is that it is white privilege, where it should be human privilege.
It's not a privilege, it's a right - a human right that should be available to all.
The whole idea of privilege is a wrong-headed anachronism. It's not wrong for any class of people to aspire to that kind of freedom and those that have should only be criticised if they pull up the ladder and discriminate against those that haven't got there. That's not a black versus white thing, that's a bigot versus and human thing.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by nwr, posted 08-19-2015 2:10 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 08-19-2015 4:04 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 08-19-2015 6:09 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 71 by AZPaul3, posted 08-19-2015 10:04 PM Tangle has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8510
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 54 of 276 (766604)
08-19-2015 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by New Cat's Eye
08-19-2015 9:19 AM


Re: some privilege
How's that work?
Like this:
Voter discrimination
You don't vote you don't get a jury summons.
In a county where half the population is black the jury pools are 65% white. With the use of peremptory challenges juries often end up all white.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-19-2015 9:19 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-19-2015 4:38 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 410 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 55 of 276 (766605)
08-19-2015 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Tangle
08-19-2015 3:54 PM


Re: some privilege
Tangle writes:
It's not a privilege, it's a right - a human right that should be available to all.
The whole idea of privilege is a wrong-headed anachronism.
I think you have that backwards. There are no "natural rights". Maybe there "should" be but there aren't. There are only privileges granted by one group to another.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2015 3:54 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2015 4:27 PM ringo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 56 of 276 (766608)
08-19-2015 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by ringo
08-19-2015 4:04 PM


Re: some privilege
Ringo writes:
I think you have that backwards. There are no "natural rights". Maybe there "should" be but there aren't. There are only privileges granted by one group to another.
I didn't say anything about 'natural' - there is no such thing. There's just rights that we grant ourselves as our societies become enlightened. In our culture these are not privileges granted to a few, they apply to all.
It's not a privilege to be white, it's an accident of birth and an inequality in our society that some parts of it still struggle to achieve in practice the freedoms that have actually been been granted to all.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 08-19-2015 4:04 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by ringo, posted 08-19-2015 4:39 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 59 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-19-2015 4:48 PM Tangle has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 276 (766613)
08-19-2015 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by AZPaul3
08-19-2015 4:02 PM


Re: some privilege
Thanks.
I honestly didn't know about the voter discrimination stuff, but I'll admit that I'm a little underwhelmed.
It kinda reminds me of a lady I heard bitching about how requiring liability insurance and annual registrations discriminated against black people owning cars.
You don't vote you don't get a jury summons.
I'll take it!
Edited by Cat Sci, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by AZPaul3, posted 08-19-2015 4:02 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by AZPaul3, posted 08-19-2015 9:03 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 410 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 58 of 276 (766614)
08-19-2015 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Tangle
08-19-2015 4:27 PM


Re: some privilege
Tangle writes:
There's just rights that we grant ourselves as our societies become enlightened. In our culture these are not privileges granted to a few, they apply to all.
But they don't apply equally to all. That's the point of this thread. Maybe they "should" but they don't. Hence, they are privileges.
Tangle writes:
It's not a privilege to be white, it's an accident of birth...
Of course it's not a privilege to be white. But it is a "reason" to receive privileged treatment.
Tangle writes:
... an inequality in our society that some parts of it still struggle to achieve in practice the freedoms that have actually been been granted to all.
You contradict yourself. If we are struggling to achieve those freedoms in practice then they haven't "actually" been granted at all. They have only been hypothetically granted. They are privileges, possibly on their way toward becoming actual rights.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2015 4:27 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2015 5:12 PM ringo has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 59 of 276 (766616)
08-19-2015 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Tangle
08-19-2015 4:27 PM


Re: some privilege
it's a right - a human right that should be available to all.
I didn't say anything about 'natural'
I didn't say anything about ice, I was talking about frozen water.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2015 4:27 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 60 of 276 (766629)
08-19-2015 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ringo
08-19-2015 4:39 PM


Re: some privilege
Ringo writes:
But they don't apply equally to all. That's the point of this thread. Maybe they "should" but they don't. Hence, they are privileges.
The rights apply to all, the fact that some appear to enjoy less of them is a flaw in our society, not a flaw in the rights.
Of course it's not a privilege to be white. But it is a "reason" to receive privileged treatment.
Correct, it's not a privilege.
Assuming the generality that you claim - which I don't - whites do not receive privileged treatment, they recieve the treatment that the rights grant them. Blacks, it is claimed, do not yet receive them in full.
You contradict yourself. If we are struggling to achieve those freedoms in practice then they haven't "actually" been granted at all. They have only been hypothetically granted. They are privileges, possibly on their way toward becoming actual rights.
The rights have obviously been granted to all - that's not in debate, I hope - the laws and conventions exist. The fact that some are still fighting to achieve them in reality is a damn shame but that doesn't make those that have full access to the rights 'privileged' - unless you're using the word to mean lucky.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by ringo, posted 08-19-2015 4:39 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 08-20-2015 11:40 AM Tangle has replied

  
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