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Author Topic:   White Privilege
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(2)
Message 76 of 276 (766689)
08-20-2015 11:04 AM


Some of the privileged white folks (I'm speaking of the banjo player's kin) who probably haven't ever given white privilege a thought:
Yeah, maybe not very relevant but isn't that a great scene?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 77 of 276 (766690)
08-20-2015 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Tangle
08-19-2015 5:12 PM


Re: some privilege
Tangle writes:
The rights apply to all, the fact that some appear to enjoy less of them is a flaw in our society, not a flaw in the rights.
But the rights do not "apply" to all; they are hypothetically there but not actually there.
Tangle writes:
... whites do not receive privileged treatment, they recieve the treatment that the rights grant them. Blacks, it is claimed, do not yet receive them in full.
And "rights" which apply only to a privileged few are called privileges.
Tangle writes:
The fact that some are still fighting to achieve them in reality is a damn shame but that doesn't make those that have full access to the rights 'privileged' - unless you're using the word to mean lucky.
Privileged can be used as a synonym for lucky - unless you're assuming that white people are more deserving of their "rights".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2015 5:12 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Tangle, posted 08-20-2015 12:52 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 78 of 276 (766691)
08-20-2015 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Phat
08-20-2015 3:19 AM


Re: some privilege
Phat writes:
... correcting this will have to involve some sort of power that takes away from that same group. In my mind, two wrongs don't make a right.
In my mind, equality is more important than vague artificial "rights" for some and not for others. Yes, you do have to "take away" power from one group to make it equal, just like you have to take away power from the King to give to the people. Boo hoo.
Phat writes:
And what of wealthy people and the privilege they enjoy? Should we force all of them to give up their excess money?
Yes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Phat, posted 08-20-2015 3:19 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 276 (766692)
08-20-2015 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Phat
08-20-2015 3:19 AM


Re: some privilege
The reason that there is no easy solution to this is because even if an artificial construct was used by the power of the majority race, correcting this will have to involve some sort of power that takes away from that same group. In my mind, two wrongs don't make a right.
What would would be the two wrongs in your mind? How is taking away an artificial construct a wrong?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Phat, posted 08-20-2015 3:19 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Phat, posted 08-20-2015 1:53 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 80 of 276 (766701)
08-20-2015 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by ringo
08-20-2015 11:40 AM


Re: some privilege
As usual Ringo, you wish to pointlessly argue the meaning of words rather than grapple with the underlying ideas behind them. As usual, I will bow out at this point.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 08-20-2015 11:40 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 08-20-2015 12:59 PM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 81 of 276 (766703)
08-20-2015 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Tangle
08-20-2015 12:52 PM


Re: some privilege
Tangle writes:
As usual Ringo, you wish to pointlessly argue the meaning of words rather than grapple with the underlying ideas behind them.
The point is that it's easy to dismiss the problem by claiming that people "have" equal rights when they don't. The people we are talking about neither have their cake nor have they eaten it because other people have both pieces. You claim that there "is" enough cake to go around, ignoring the fact that only the privileged actually have cake.
So yes, the meaning of words is important.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Tangle, posted 08-20-2015 12:52 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 82 of 276 (766709)
08-20-2015 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by NoNukes
08-20-2015 11:53 AM


Re: some privilege
How is taking away an artificial construct a wrong?
Good question. Lets invent some hypotheticals and then discuss the specifics.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by NoNukes, posted 08-20-2015 11:53 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by NoNukes, posted 08-21-2015 3:38 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 276 (766749)
08-21-2015 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Phat
08-20-2015 1:53 PM


Re: some privilege
NoNukes writes:
How is taking away an artificial construct a wrong?
Phat writes:
Good question. Lets invent some hypotheticals and then discuss the specifics.
It's your idea we are trying to illustrate. If you've got some examples of what you mean, then by all means tell us about them.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Phat, posted 08-20-2015 1:53 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 84 of 276 (766750)
08-21-2015 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by AZPaul3
08-20-2015 3:08 AM


Re: some privilege
AZPaul writes:
Is it divisive?
yes it is. As soon as you label an entire class of people - based in this case only on the colour of their skin - with an negative value, you are being divisive. And, racist.
This is about opportunity and quality of life.
Agreed.
But a good point. We can hardly undo a privilege-segmented society when there are disparities in rights. Rights must be recognized, granted and assured.
Agreed
But even then the opportunities to exercise those rights in full cannot be achieved in a society where privilege exists.
This is the part I disagree with. It's not a privilege to walk down a street unassailed by the state - it's a right. The fact that some people in some circumstances are subject to this is a failure in society to provide those rights equally. The solution is not to condemn those that don't suffer the oppression, it's to work to achieve this equality.
The rights side is coming along ... slowly ... but moving. We haven't even begun to address the privilege side of this equation.
You appear to be using privilege to mean something different to me. If you're meaning massive inequality of wealth (and therefore opportunity), then I'm with you.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by AZPaul3, posted 08-20-2015 3:08 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Rrhain, posted 08-21-2015 4:29 AM Tangle has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


(4)
Message 85 of 276 (766751)
08-21-2015 4:29 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Tangle
08-21-2015 3:58 AM


Re: some privilege
Tangle writes:
quote:
As soon as you label an entire class of people - based in this case only on the colour of their skin - with an negative value, you are being divisive. And, racist.
Logical error: False equivalency.
You are arguing that the fight against racism is racist because it makes racists uncomfortable to be identified as racists.
quote:
It's not a privilege to walk down a street unassailed by the state - it's a right.
You ignore the fact that you have the privilege of not having to worry about it. Plenty of non-white people walk down the street unassailed by the state. But they wonder whether or not this is the time that lucky streak will end. Even when things are going well, you are always waiting for the other shoe to drop.
quote:
The solution is not to condemn those that don't suffer the oppression
You are not being condemned for having the privilege.
You are being condemned for refusing to acknowledge that reality and getting defensive when it is pointed out.
Let's try another tack: "You didn't build that." So many people got upset over that idea (a massive misquote) since they thought it meant that they didn't work hard to achieve their success.
Instead, it was pointing out all the benefits and assistance that was given that allowed that success to happen. Sure, your business is successful, but it does not exist in a vacuum. You didn't build the roads that lead up to it. You didn't build the electrical generators that supply the power or the water filtration plants and sewer systems that manage the water. You didn't build the schools that educated you, the banks that funded you, or the inherited money you acquired. Indeed, you worked for your success...with a lot of help. And it is telling when someone gets upset over having that pointed out or denies that he was the beneficiary of that help.
Privilege works the same way: As a member of the dominant culture, you have the luxury of having assistance from others that you would not receive were you not so. Nobody blames anybody for being born into the dominant culture or having such privilege thrust upon you.
Denying that it exists and getting defensive when it is demonstrated, on the other hand....

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Tangle, posted 08-21-2015 3:58 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Tangle, posted 08-21-2015 7:09 AM Rrhain has replied
 Message 87 by RAZD, posted 08-21-2015 2:54 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 86 of 276 (766753)
08-21-2015 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Rrhain
08-21-2015 4:29 AM


Re: some privilege
Rrhain writes:
You are arguing that the fight against racism is racist because it makes racists uncomfortable to be identified as racists.
I am doing no such thing. I am arguing that calling all white people privileged is as racist as calling all black people lazy or whatever stereotypical slander you can think of.
I'm arguing that the term 'privileged white people' puts a negative value on an entire class of people.
You are not being condemned for having the privilege.
You're assuming that I'm white and that I'm feeling condemned. You also say I'm being defensive. Perhaps you could consider that I'm simply arguing a fair position.
Denying that it exists and getting defensive when it is demonstrated, on the other hand....
I'm neither being defensive nor denying that some sectors of society are oppressed and suffer many deprivations and have said this many times. My argument is that this is no reason to abuse sectors of society that aren't oppressed in this way. It is an argument for those that are better off to do something about it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Rrhain, posted 08-21-2015 4:29 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Rrhain, posted 08-22-2015 3:56 PM Tangle has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 87 of 276 (766774)
08-21-2015 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Rrhain
08-21-2015 4:29 AM


Re: some privilege
When you share a privilege it isn't taken from you, nor is the other party given something they are not entitled to have as a basic right.
Gay marriage does not take away hetero's right to marry
Freedom to walk through store without being followed and freedom to walk down your street without being confronted by police are not taken away from whites when they are shared with blacks.
Equal pay for work of equal value does not take pay away from men to pay women an equal amount.
We did this with women's votes, and we did this with civil rights. But there is still work to do for equal "privilege" to do with your life as you like.
The only thing that ends when you share a privilege is the existence of that privilege, as there are no universal privileges, just rights.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Rrhain, posted 08-21-2015 4:29 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 88 of 276 (766815)
08-22-2015 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Tangle
08-19-2015 1:31 PM


Re: some privilege
I think it's wrong to equate being able to go about our business without oppression as a privilege and that it is somehow negative. Surely this is a state of civilisation that we all aspire to?
It isn't a negative, the negative is people that do not enjoy the same treatment. It's not only what we aspire to, but what we aspire to apply to all people.
I would say that how we judge a society is not by how well the best of us are doing, but on how well the least of us are doing.
The fact that there is a section of society that feels they have not achieved this state is a matter for concern and action by those that have, but it's not something that those that have achieved it should be criticised for.
It's more like they are not allowed to achieve the same state. As Rrhain points out there are many barriers to achievements put in the way of people of color, natives, latinos, etc. We should be working to remove barriers, not build them nor passively leave them in place when they have been built by others.
Accepting the status quo when you benefit from it is just as bad as setting it up in terms of how people marginalized by the status quo are treated. Aiding and abetting.
Letting things slide because you are comfortable will not resolve the income inequality issue nor the global climate change issue.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2015 1:31 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Tangle, posted 08-22-2015 8:13 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 89 of 276 (766816)
08-22-2015 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by RAZD
08-22-2015 8:01 AM


Re: some privilege
^^^ I don't disagree with any of that and have been saying the same myself.
But calling all whites privileged is dumb and not the way to help those that are disadvantaged in society - both non-white and white.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by RAZD, posted 08-22-2015 8:01 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2015 10:12 AM Tangle has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 90 of 276 (766825)
08-22-2015 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Tangle
08-22-2015 8:13 AM


Re: some privilege
But calling all whites privileged is dumb...
The whole situation is dumb (read: human).
But the fact on the ground is that whites are privileged in our white society.
Whites, on average, have better access to, and opportunities for, the benefits of society. You may argue the semantics of calling that "privilege" but that is not going to change the facts.
"Privilege" may hold a negative connotation for you personally. What word would you use instead?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Tangle, posted 08-22-2015 8:13 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Tangle, posted 08-22-2015 2:03 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
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