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Author Topic:   White Privilege
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 91 of 276 (766841)
08-22-2015 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by AZPaul3
08-22-2015 10:12 AM


Re: some privilege
AZPaul writes:
But the fact on the ground is that whites are privileged in our white society.
Whites are not privileged. Some whites enjoy the rights that all people are supposed to have. As do some blacks. Those whites and blacks that do enjoy those rights are not in some weird way negatively burdened by it. It's an insult to a whole class of people to imply that they are suppressing another sector of society just by being white.
Whites, on average, have better access to, and opportunities for, the benefits of society. You may argue the semantics of calling that "privilege" but that is not going to change the facts.
Right, we're getting there. On average, and particularly in the US and some specific parts of the US. The racial disparity in the jail population in particular is a national disgrace.
"Privilege" may hold a negative connotation for you personally. What word would you use instead?
I don't use any word for it. My argument is that you cannot slander a whole sector of the population by calling them 'privileged' - in the negative way that is intended - just because - on average - they are not followed down supermarket isles being suspected of shoplifting for no other reason than they are white. It's bullshit.
The problem is not one of white privilege, it's one of black disadvantage. Like RAZD said above, you can't solve the problem of black disadvantage by removing the rights of white people which is implied by this antiquated concept of 'white privilege'.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2015 10:12 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Rrhain, posted 08-22-2015 4:24 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 95 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2015 5:41 PM Tangle has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


(1)
Message 92 of 276 (766850)
08-22-2015 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Tangle
08-21-2015 7:09 AM


Re: some privilege
Tangle responds to me:
quote:
quote:
You are arguing that the fight against racism is racist because it makes racists uncomfortable to be identified as racists.
I am doing no such thing. I am arguing that calling all white people privileged is as racist as calling all black people lazy or whatever stereotypical slander you can think of.
And there. You did it again. The fight against racism is somehow racist because it makes racists uncomfortable to be identified as racists.
Racism is based upon power. Now indeed, since you seem to need to have spelled out explicitly, not all situations have power in the hands of white people. Power is based upon structural forms and depending upon who is around and what the situation is, what power exists due to race can change.
But in general, in the American society, white people have more power than non-white people. And thus, "all white people" are privileged. Privilege is not a magic wand. When you make an illegal U-turn, it's not like you can can tell the cop, "Hey, I'm white," and have him let you off with a warning. But if you are white, the cop is more likely to let you off with a warning than if you aren't.
That's privilege.
And it extends to all white people in this society.
quote:
You also say I'm being defensive.
Well, you are. It doesn't matter if your defensiveness is personal or not. You're being defensive about the establishment of privilege as a real thing.
quote:
Perhaps you could consider that I'm simply arguing a fair position.
That would require a fair position to be your argument. This is another example of your defensiveness.
quote:
My argument is that this is no reason to abuse sectors of society that aren't oppressed in this way.
And has been pointed out to you, recognizing privilege is not "abuse." To get defensive, as you are, about having that privilege recognized is the issue.
quote:
It is an argument for those that are better off to do something about it.
And the first step is to recognize the existence of privilege and to check it. The first step is to not get defensive when someone points it out. The first step is to stop claiming "abuse."
Yes, all white people.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Tangle, posted 08-21-2015 7:09 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Tangle, posted 08-22-2015 4:48 PM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 93 of 276 (766854)
08-22-2015 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Tangle
08-22-2015 2:03 PM


Re: some privilege
Tangle writes:
quote:
Whites are not privileged. Some whites enjoy the rights that all people are supposed to have. As do some blacks.
Incorrect. The fact remains that no matter how much success a black person has, he's still black and will be treated as black.
Do you know the story of Bryan Stevenson? He's a black lawyer who, when sitting in his car outside of his apartment listening to the radio, had a SWAT unit called on him, pulling a gun on him, and an officer shouting, "Move and I'll blow your head off."
And this was Atlanta, not exactly known for having a small black community.
The neighbors came out during this and started telling the cops to search him for things that had been stolen. Which they did. And when it was over, them having found nothing in their illegal search, he asked for an apology and rather than getting one, was told that he was lucky that he didn't have anything on him "this time."
So no, not "some blacks." No matter how successful you may be, you are still black and will still be treated as black. There's always another shoe to drop at some point.
From 2008 to 2013, not a single unarmed white person was shot by the cops in New York City.
When white people are brandishing weapons and shooting at police officers during a car chase, they somehow manage to get captured without getting shot.
For you to then claim that "whites are not privileged" is to deny reality. It is an insult to a whole class of people to imply that they aren't being suppressed by society just because they aren't white.
quote:
My argument is that you cannot slander a whole sector of the population by calling them 'privileged' - in the negative way that is intended
And that's where you fail and where your defensiveness is showing.
It isn't "negative." The problem is not being white in a white society. It's refusing to recognize the reality of what that means and how it has affected you and how it colors your view of the world and what you expect of others. It's very much akin to the Libertarian foolishness. Remember Hobby Lobby? A common refrain among Libertarians was to say, "If you don't like the benefits you get at your job, find another job." That assumes that there are an infinite number of employers offering an infinite number of jobs with an infinite array of benefits packages and the only reason why you don't have the one that suits your needs is because you're too lazy to find it.
That's a view that smacks of privilege. It's an argument made by someone who has a decent job with decent benefits who doesn't live in an area where there aren't any jobs let alone one with decent benefits and sufficient pay to live on.
Nobody thinks it is "negative" to have a good job with good benefits. But what is "negative" is to ignore the reality that no, you didn't build that; despite the work you did put in, you were still handed a significant portion of that specifically and precisely because of your race.
All white people. This country was built upon race and we haven't overcome it yet. A person born today is still benefitting from the legacy of racism that has led up to this point. When your parents go looking for a school for you, they're going to try and find the best one they can. But that school was not built in a vacuum. It, too, has benefited from the racism of our culture and how money is spent.
This isn't the child's fault or even the parents' fault. Nobody is blaming them for trying to do the best that they can given the world they actually live in. It is not a "negative" that they are doing so.
Denying the reality of that situation, however.....

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Tangle, posted 08-22-2015 2:03 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 94 of 276 (766858)
08-22-2015 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Rrhain
08-22-2015 3:56 PM


Re: some privilege
Retc writes:
And there. You did it again.
Don't worry, I tire of being patronised very quickly.
The fight against racism is somehow racist because it makes racists uncomfortable to be identified as racists.
Obviously not. Being white does not equal being racist. Classifying all white people as racist, is racist. It's not a hard thing to undestand. A blaket statement claiming that white people are racist, is, by definition a racist statement.
If you wish to reply, try to leave out the personal accusations and patronising tone - it's just nicer that way.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Rrhain, posted 08-22-2015 3:56 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Rrhain, posted 08-25-2015 2:17 AM Tangle has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 95 of 276 (766860)
08-22-2015 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Tangle
08-22-2015 2:03 PM


Re: some privilege
Whites are not privileged. Some whites enjoy the rights that all people are supposed to have.
No, Tangle, this is not about rights. Rights are law. We're talking opportunity.
How many corporate CEO's (major corporations 1000+ employees) are there in America and Europe? 30,000 +-? How many of them are non-white? <500.
Why? Has nothing to do with rights. Has everything to do with opportunity.
Whites have the opportunities in white society - systemically. Non-whites, with all the same rights as white citizens, do not get those opportunities, systemically.
That is the benefit, the privilege, of being white in a white society.
The sooner we recognize this issue of privilege the sooner we can start to fix it.
[abe]
This could just go on and on. I've had my say and I don't think anyone will benefit from repeats.
You, at least with me, have the last word here.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Tangle, posted 08-22-2015 2:03 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Tangle, posted 08-22-2015 6:07 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 96 of 276 (766862)
08-22-2015 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by AZPaul3
08-22-2015 5:41 PM


Re: some privilege
AZP writes:
No, Tangle, this is not about rights. Rights are law. We're talking opportunity.
I know what you're talking about and I agree with you :-)
I have said many, many times that there is inequality in society, particularly so in the USA between black and white communities. So much is obvious.
The solution is not to label all white people as elitist and privileged as if they were a homologous, conspiritorial grouping and making a positive - achieving democratic freedoms - into a negative. Some people - not just whites - have what society aspires to and need to be the people to sort the mess out.
But also the problem is far more complicated than this terrible black and white thing you guys seem to want it to be - it's insulting to both colours and part of the problem itself.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2015 5:41 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by xongsmith, posted 08-25-2015 12:34 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


(1)
Message 97 of 276 (766995)
08-25-2015 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Tangle
08-22-2015 4:48 PM


Re: some privilege
Tangle responds to me:
quote:
Don't worry, I tire of being patronised very quickly.
Good. Then perhaps you'll quickly stop being defensive.
quote:
Being white does not equal being racist.
Nobody said it did.
Being white in this society does mean, however, that you are a beneficiary of white privilege. This is the part you keep failing to recognize and claim is somehow a "negative" to recognize.
quote:
Classifying all white people as racist, is racist. It's not a hard thing to undestand. A blaket statement claiming that white people are racist, is, by definition a racist statement.
How fortunate that nobody did that. Do you really not understand the difference between being the beneficiary of racism and actively continuing that racism? That someone else is holding an umbrella over your head doesn't mean you are trying to get anybody else wet. But to deny that the umbrella exists, that you are benefitting from it, and then to get defensive when someone points out that the umbrella is there is a problem.
Indeed, it is not a hard thing to understand. That is why you're getting so much pushback.
Talk about patronizing.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Tangle, posted 08-22-2015 4:48 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2015 3:37 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 98 of 276 (766997)
08-25-2015 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Rrhain
08-25-2015 2:17 AM


Re: some privilege
You and others here use the term 'white priviledge' to negatively label an entire class of people indiscriminately based entirely and only on the colour of their skin - that is racist and it is also untrue.
Great swathes of white American society are disadvantaged and many blacks enjoy what you call white privileges and I call human rights.
For the final time, I am not saying that there are not sectors of society that have not yet achieved these rights but that it's divisive and a continuance of the racial difference problem to use antiquated blanket terms when talking about what is a actualy a problem of discrimination and disadvantage across society as a whole.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Rrhain, posted 08-25-2015 2:17 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by RAZD, posted 08-25-2015 7:18 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 08-25-2015 3:58 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 111 by Rrhain, posted 08-26-2015 1:43 AM Tangle has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 99 of 276 (767002)
08-25-2015 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Tangle
08-25-2015 3:37 AM


are we having a misunderstanding?
You and others here use the term 'white priviledge' to negatively label an entire class of people indiscriminately based entirely and only on the colour of their skin - that is racist and it is also untrue.
Correct: what you said was untrue ... it is not to label and it is not to portray people negatively. What it is doing is pointing out that when some people are unprivileged, that results in some people being privileged, whether they seek to be privileged or not.
When we say some people are unprivileged and point out who then is privileged, it is to resolve the issue of some people being unprivileged, which will also mean resolving the issue of some people being privileged whether they are actively involved in maintaining their privilege or not.
Perhaps this will help (from Chuck Dunning on Facebook):
Great swathes of white American society are disadvantaged ...
But not as much as blacks in general.
... and many blacks enjoy what you call white privileges and I call human rights.
Not really. That won't happen until white privilege ceases to exist.
For the final time, I am not saying that there are not sectors of society that have not yet achieved these rights but that it's divisive and a continuance of the racial difference problem to use antiquated blanket terms when talking about what is a actualy a problem of discrimination and disadvantage across society as a whole.
And the question is who benefits from discrimination and disadvantage across society as a whole? Doesn't the solution to the problem mean bringing the disadvantaged and the advantaged together into a common group?
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : ..

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2015 3:37 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2015 1:06 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


(1)
Message 100 of 276 (767032)
08-25-2015 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Tangle
08-22-2015 6:07 PM


Re: some privilege
Tangle writes:
I have said many, many times that there is inequality in society, particularly so in the USA between black and white communities. So much is obvious.
Maybe this conversation would go better if the term "privilege" was replaced by "favorable side of inequality"? Maybe "privilege" has a distant connotation to the Queen of France saying "let them eat cake" for some of us?
It could all boil down to semantics again, based on cultural differences.....
For example, take the word "clever". In the US it is linked to making an intelligent maneuver, but I've heard it used in the UK to mean an adroit athletic maneuver.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Tangle, posted 08-22-2015 6:07 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Rrhain, posted 08-26-2015 1:58 AM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 101 of 276 (767040)
08-25-2015 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by RAZD
08-25-2015 7:18 AM


Re: are we having a misunderstanding?
RAZD writes:
And the question is who benefits from discrimination and disadvantage across society as a whole? Doesn't the solution to the problem mean bringing the disadvantaged and the advantaged together into a common group?
I won't bother to reply to the rest of your post - I'd just be repeating myself and I don't disagree in principle with the underlying issues - which are that many if not most black people are disadvantaged by the colour of their skin, particularly in the USA.
My objection is the blanket use of the term 'white privilege' as though we're almost back in the slave days. A man with both legs is not privileged amongst a group of veterans with no legs. He has what everyone should have and they are disadvantaged because they don't.
To begin rebalancing this we need to stop blaming people on both sides for being the colour that they are and start talking in less divisive terms about people's rights to be treated equally.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by RAZD, posted 08-25-2015 7:18 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by ringo, posted 08-25-2015 1:10 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 114 by Rrhain, posted 08-26-2015 2:08 AM Tangle has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 102 of 276 (767041)
08-25-2015 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Tangle
08-25-2015 1:06 PM


Re: are we having a misunderstanding?
Tangle writes:
A man with both legs is not privileged amongst a group of veterans with no legs. He has what everyone should have and they are disadvantaged because they don't.
So let's change the title of the thread to "Black Disprivilege".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2015 1:06 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2015 1:25 PM ringo has replied
 Message 104 by xongsmith, posted 08-25-2015 1:27 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 103 of 276 (767043)
08-25-2015 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by ringo
08-25-2015 1:10 PM


Re: are we having a misunderstanding?
Black disadvantage.
Privilege has unnecessary and unwarranted connotations which don't help the battle to resolve the problems of discrimination it just continues it.
And not just black; religious, female, hispanic, homosexual, impoverished, uneducated-white, mentally ill - all disadvantaged.
Start talking about discrimination and disadvantage and I'm with you.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by ringo, posted 08-25-2015 1:10 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by ringo, posted 08-25-2015 1:28 PM Tangle has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


(1)
Message 104 of 276 (767044)
08-25-2015 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by ringo
08-25-2015 1:10 PM


Re: are we having a misunderstanding?
Ringo suggests:
So let's change the title of the thread to "Black Disprivilege".
...or "systemic non-white privilege-challenged".....
Yikes!

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by ringo, posted 08-25-2015 1:10 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 105 of 276 (767045)
08-25-2015 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Tangle
08-25-2015 1:25 PM


Re: are we having a misunderstanding?
Tangle writes:
Privilege has unnecessary and unwarranted connotations....
Only to you, apparently.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2015 1:25 PM Tangle has not replied

  
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