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Author Topic:   White Privilege
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(1)
Message 106 of 276 (767046)
08-25-2015 1:28 PM


Girl Power
I pulled into a Safeway gas station before I left on my recent trip. In Oregon we cannot pump our own gas, so there are a crew of minimum wage guys working at every gas station.
Anyway, the gas jockey started filling my truck and then ran over to another island with the window-washing squeegee where 2 other jockeys were already washing the window of a cute redheaded girl's car.
Then all 3 ran past me and my truck to the island on the other side to wash the windows of a blonde girl's car.
I grumbled the whole time as I washed my own windows.
Of course, this has nothing to do with privilege, just hormones. None of the gas jockeys had a chance with the girls, which made me feel a little better as I hit the road.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 107 of 276 (767048)
08-25-2015 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Tanypteryx
08-25-2015 1:28 PM


Re: Girl Power
I grumbled the whole time as I washed my own windows.
No, don't grumble, Tany. You're watching a fascinating display of nature in action in the wild. I would have squeegeed my windshield with a slight smile on my face watching this scene. I probably would have gone on to do the back window as well just to see the extended version of this play.
I'd bet that if this were three dragonflies darting around a cute red-haired damselfly you would have been fascinated.(I know, I know. I just couldn't pass up the joke.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-25-2015 1:28 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 108 of 276 (767055)
08-25-2015 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Tangle
08-25-2015 3:37 AM


Its Not A White Thing
I think I understand your position. Its the Label that is offensive.
Facts may show us that a large percentage of black men are incarcerated, but it would be improper to infer that blacks have a higher incarceration rate. Reason? Not all blacks do. It is simply incarceration for some of society-at-large.
Facts may also show us that a large percentage of white people have benefitted from cultural advantages which they didn't earn. It would be improper, however, to label this as white privilege.
It is simply privilege in general.The labels don't help.
Is that basically your position?
Edited by Phat, : add

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2015 3:37 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
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caffeine
Member (Idle past 1025 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 109 of 276 (767057)
08-25-2015 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
08-25-2015 3:58 PM


Re: Its Not A White Thing
Facts may show us that a large percentage of black men are incarcerated, but it would be improper to infer that blacks have a higher incarceration rate. Reason? Not all blacks do. It is simply incarceration for some of society-at-large.
This seems to be a bit confused. If a larger percentage of black men are incarcerated than non-black men, then black men have a higher rate of incarceration. That's entailed by the definitions of the words in the preceding sentence. I think you mean something a bit different.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 08-25-2015 3:58 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 110 of 276 (767063)
08-25-2015 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
08-25-2015 3:58 PM


Re: Its Not A White Thing
Phat writes:
Its the Label that is offensive.
It's not so much that it's offensive - though it is - it's because it's used to imply that an entire section of society are deliberately oppressing another section of society simply because of the colour of their skin, something that in other situations would be called wrongful and blatant discrimination/racism.
Facts may show us that a large percentage of black men are incarcerated, but it would be improper to infer that blacks have a higher incarceration rate. Reason? Not all blacks do. It is simply incarceration for some of society-at-large.
Er, no Phat, blacks DO have a higher encaceration rate than whites - there is a large disparity between blacks and whites in prison. It looks very like institutionalised racism.
Facts may also show us that a large percentage of white people have benefitted from cultural advantages which they didn't earn. It would be improper, however, to label this as white privilege.
Partly. But I do not accept that it's a privilege to be able to walk through a shopping mall without being followed by security; that's a right. Those that don't have that right are discriminated against.
It is simply privilege in general.The labels don't help.
The labels don't help, they hinder. Label an entire class of society in negative ways and you're likely to get a negative result.
Labeling theory is the theory of how the self-identity and behavior of individuals may be determined or influenced by the terms used to describe or classify them. It is associated with the concepts of self-fulfilling prophecy and stereotyping. Labeling theory holds that deviance is not inherent to an act, but instead focuses on the tendency of majorities to negatively label minorities or those seen as deviant from standard cultural norms.[1] The theory was prominent during the 1960s and 1970s, and some modified versions of the theory have developed and are still currently popular. A stigma is defined as a powerfully negative label that changes a person's self-concept and social identity.
We need to get passed this simplistic blame game.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 08-25-2015 3:58 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


(2)
Message 111 of 276 (767095)
08-26-2015 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Tangle
08-25-2015 3:37 AM


Re: some privilege
Tangle responds to me:
quote:
You and others here use the term 'white priviledge' to negatively label an entire class of people indiscriminately based entirely and only on the colour of their skin
Incorrect. You keep claiming "negative" when that simply isn't true.
Privilege isn't a magic wand that you wield to benefit yourself. It's something that others bestow upon you. You don't get to tell the cop, "I'm white," and then get the cop to only give you a warning rather than shoot you. But if you are white, you are more likely to have the former happen than the latter.
What is negative is to deny that such this is the case. What is negative is to get defensive when this reality is pointed out.
quote:
Great swathes of white American society are disadvantaged
Indeed. As I directly stated to you, privilege isn't a magic wand. You don't get to wave it and say, "I'm Elmer J. Fudd," and suddenly become a millionaire who owns a mansion and a yacht. Of course there are disadvantaged white people.
But they are privileged compared to disadvantaged non-white people.
Privilege doesn't mean your life is perfect. It means that your life is likely to be better than someone in the same situation who doesn't have your privilege. Poor white people don't have political parties calling them "welfare queens" in order to win elections, for example. You are trying to say that because there are successful black people, that means there is no privilege; that because there are poor white people, this means they aren't privileged. Nobody is saying that all white people have it better than all non-white people.
It's that if you have two people who are in the same situation, the privileged person will likely have a better outcome than the non-privileged person. Not because the privileged person is deliberately trying to keep the non-privileged person down but because society is set up to give the privileged person more help, the benefit of the doubt, the break. A black person is more likely to be stopped, more likely to be questioned, more likely to be detained, more likely to be arrested, more likely to be charged, more likely to be prosecuted, more likely to be tried, more likely to be convicted, and more likely to receive a harsher sentence than a white person. That doesn't mean there aren't any white people in prison. It's that if you're white, the system is going to treat you better than if you're black.
Your continued attempt to deny this is divisive and a continuance of the racial difference problem that we see. It dismisses the lives of those who aren't part of the dominant culture and pretends that their experiences don't count.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2015 3:37 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Phat, posted 08-26-2015 2:00 AM Rrhain has not replied
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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


(4)
Message 112 of 276 (767097)
08-26-2015 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by xongsmith
08-25-2015 12:34 PM


Re: some privilege
xongsmith writes:
quote:
Maybe "privilege" has a distant connotation to the Queen of France saying "let them eat cake" for some of us?
But that is a side effect of privilege: You often don't realize you have it due to the systemic nature of the privilege and you end up viewing the world through that lens of your privilege. If you live in a world where there is bread and cake and muffins and more, it can be difficult to comprehend that there are people that don't have that. The problem isn't that someone is rich. It's when someone who is rich acts as if someone who is not rich has the same abilities as they do. As the cliche goes, the fish doesn't see the water it swims in.
That's where the phrase, "check your privilege," comes from. Nobody faults anybody for having privilege. It's refusing to recognize it that is the fault. It's why the "#AllLivesMatter" backlash is the problem: It isn't that white people don't have problems. It's that black lives have different problems that need to be addressed directly in order to have them fixed and to sidetrack and distract from that focus will ensure that they never get fixed. The problems of white people are rarely because they are white. Black people have the same problems and racism on top of them. To focus only on the commonalities is to ignore the racism which means it will never get better because the racism makes the common problems worse.
As an example: The War on Drugs has exploded our prison population. And yet, despite the fact that white people and black people have similar levels of drug use, black people are more likely to be convicted and will be sentenced more harshly. Dismantling the War on Drugs is a good thing, but it doesn't solve the racism inherent in the justice system independent of the War on Drugs which means black people will still have worse outcomes when they come into contact with the justice system.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 113 of 276 (767098)
08-26-2015 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Rrhain
08-26-2015 1:43 AM


Re: some privilege
Rrhain writes:
Privilege doesn't mean your life is perfect. It means that your life is likely to be better than someone in the same situation who doesn't have your privilege. Poor white people don't have political parties calling them "welfare queens" in order to win elections, for example. You are trying to say that because there are successful black people, that means there is no privilege; that because there are poor white people, this means they aren't privileged. Nobody is saying that all white people have it better than all non-white people.
It's that if you have two people who are in the same situation, the privileged person will likely have a better outcome than the non-privileged person. Not because the privileged person is deliberately trying to keep the non-privileged person down but because society is set up to give the privileged person more help, the benefit of the doubt, the break. A black person is more likely to be stopped, more likely to be questioned, more likely to be detained, more likely to be arrested, more likely to be charged, more likely to be prosecuted, more likely to be tried, more likely to be convicted, and more likely to receive a harsher sentence than a white person. That doesn't mean there aren't any white people in prison. It's that if you're white, the system is going to treat you better than if you're black.
OK, so I'll give you the argument. You make it persuasively. The question remains as to how to rectify the situation without hurting any more classes of people (or individuals).

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Rrhain, posted 08-26-2015 1:43 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


(5)
Message 114 of 276 (767099)
08-26-2015 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Tangle
08-25-2015 1:06 PM


Re: are we having a misunderstanding?
Tangle writes:
quote:
A man with both legs is not privileged amongst a group of veterans with no legs.
When the society in which he lives assumes that everybody has two legs, treats those who have two legs better, and cannot comprehend that there are members of society who don't have two legs, blaming them for not having two legs, and presuming that those who don't have two legs have only themselves to blame for their situation, then yes, a man with both legs is privileged.
He's not going around deliberately trying to keep amputees down. He's simply benefitting from the better treatment he is receiving from the world around him. That isn't a negative.
Denying that he is receiving that benefit is negative. Getting defensive when those benefits are pointed out is negative. Ignoring the lives of those who don't have legs is negative.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2015 1:06 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2015 2:46 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 115 of 276 (767102)
08-26-2015 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Rrhain
08-26-2015 2:08 AM


Re: are we having a misunderstanding?
RrHain writes:
He's not going around deliberately trying to keep amputees down.
This demonstrates exactly what I'm trying to say.
When you use the term 'white privilege' you are saying that all white people are deliberately attempting to keep all black people down - it's implicit in its use.
Saying such a thing is untrue, divisive and insulting. It's also racist and if it's continued to be used in this way it will alienate and result in the opposite of what we all want to happen which is to help those that are plainly disadvantaged by their colour.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Rrhain, posted 08-26-2015 2:08 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Rrhain, posted 08-26-2015 4:04 AM Tangle has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


(2)
Message 116 of 276 (767103)
08-26-2015 4:04 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Tangle
08-26-2015 2:46 AM


Re: are we having a misunderstanding?
Tangle responds to me:
quote:
When you use the term 'white privilege' you are saying that all white people are deliberately attempting to keep all black people down - it's implicit in its use.
Incorrect. It doesn't mean that at all. That's why you keep failing. Despite having the term explicitly explained to you and shown how it is never used the way you claim it is, you continue to insist that it means something that it doesn't.
Continuing to insist upon this untrue thing is divisive and insulting. It borders on racism for it denies the reality of those who aren't white and your continued obstinancy alienates those around you and results in the opposite of what it is you claim to be fighting for. After all, Jon is dismissing the entire BLM campaign over the actions of two individuals who aren't even related to BLM.
If you dismiss the non-privileged people who are describing the reality of their situation, you are precisely the problem.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2015 2:46 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2015 8:22 AM Rrhain has replied
 Message 127 by Jon, posted 08-26-2015 7:55 PM Rrhain has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 117 of 276 (767114)
08-26-2015 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Rrhain
08-26-2015 4:04 AM


Re: are we having a misunderstanding?
Rrhain writes:
Incorrect. It doesn't mean that at all. That's why you keep failing. Despite having the term explicitly explained to you and shown how it is never used the way you claim it is, you continue to insist that it means something that it doesn't.
Except that you explain in the analogy that that is EXACTLY what it actually means when it is being used. It's a white put down. Let's have one last go at it. And please note that pople generally do not recognise bias and racism in themselves.
This is what you said in response to the no-leg/both legs analagy - my emphasis.
Rrhain writes:
He's not going around deliberately trying to keep amputees down. He's simply benefitting from the better treatment he is receiving from the world around him. That isn't a negative.
The implication is that the white man is deliberately keeping the black man down - which I say is a racist slander that can only harm society as a whole by labelling all white people as oppressors.
On your second point, I agree that it is not a negative to have access to the rights that are supposed to be available to all and have said so many times - to which you've previously disagreed, implying that white people are overprivileged, not that blacks are disadvantaged compared to them.
Please have the last word, I've repeated myself too much to no avail, 'there's none so blind as wil not see.'

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Rrhain, posted 08-26-2015 4:04 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by MrHambre, posted 08-26-2015 9:02 AM Tangle has replied
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MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 118 of 276 (767122)
08-26-2015 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Tangle
08-26-2015 8:22 AM


Re: are we having a misunderstanding?
Tangle writes:
quote:
Rrhain writes:
He's not going around deliberately trying to keep amputees down. He's simply benefitting from the better treatment he is receiving from the world around him. That isn't a negative.
The implication is that the white man is deliberately keeping the black man down - which I say is a racist slander etc. etc.
Um, isn't that the exact opposite of what he's implying? Like the two-legged man who's not going around deliberately trying to keep amputees down, the white man reaps the benefits of an unfair system, whether or not he's even aware of it. Rrhain said the existence of privilege itself isn't negative, denying it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2015 8:22 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2015 10:00 AM MrHambre has not replied
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 119 of 276 (767125)
08-26-2015 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by MrHambre
08-26-2015 9:02 AM


Re: are we having a misunderstanding?
'fraid, I've had enough, it's a simple enough point I'm trying to make but obviously failing.
The phrase 'white privilege' is a blanket term applied to all white people. It is not used in a positive way - it infers an oppression of the black by the white and it comes from an age of active bigotry and prejudice where different rights were granted to different classes of people - that has thankfully passed. We now have equal rights but not necessarily equal access to them.
It may be the case that that is not what is actually meant - if what is meant is that on average blacks are disadvantaged compared to white people then that is what needs to be said.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by MrHambre, posted 08-26-2015 9:02 AM MrHambre has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 120 of 276 (767126)
08-26-2015 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by MrHambre
08-26-2015 9:02 AM


Re: are we having a misunderstanding?
Mr.Hambre writes:
Like the two-legged man who's not going around deliberately trying to keep amputees down, the white man reaps the benefits of an unfair system, whether or not he's even aware of it.
Again I ask: What solutions can be implemented? Would any other groups get hurt by correcting such benefits?
Is awareness itself the solution? Or...are other measures needed....and if so, how would they be implemented?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by MrHambre, posted 08-26-2015 9:02 AM MrHambre has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by ringo, posted 08-26-2015 12:48 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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