Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/7


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Religions are fairy tales for adults. Should we encourage them to grow up?
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 106 of 424 (767148)
08-26-2015 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Faith
08-26-2015 12:38 PM


Faith writes:
Jesus was talking to individuals as usual, not to the criminal prosecutor of a state.
In a democracy, the individuals are responsible for the actions of the state.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 08-26-2015 12:38 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 08-26-2015 1:20 PM ringo has replied
 Message 115 by Greatest I am, posted 08-26-2015 2:27 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 107 of 424 (767153)
08-26-2015 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by ringo
08-26-2015 12:42 PM


Jesus was talking to individuals as usual, not to the criminal prosecutor of a state.
In a democracy, the individuals are responsible for the actions of the state.
Which individuals? We all vote in different directions. However, the actions of the state should operate more like the Law of the Old Testament, I don't say exactly, but more like, eye for an eye being a fair statement of perfect justice. Jesus was talking about how individuals should deal with a slap on the cheek or the stealing of a cloak. That's not a recipe for the prosecution of criminal cases.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by ringo, posted 08-26-2015 12:42 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by ringo, posted 08-26-2015 1:30 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 116 by Greatest I am, posted 08-26-2015 2:33 PM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 108 of 424 (767155)
08-26-2015 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Faith
08-26-2015 1:20 PM


Faith writes:
Jesus was talking about how individuals should deal with a slap on the cheek or the stealing of a cloak. That's not a recipe for the prosecution of criminal cases.
Jesus was correcting the misconception that people like you have about "an eye for an eye".
quote:
Exodus 21:23-25 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Thou shalt GIVE, not thou shalt take - i.e. if you put out somebody's eye, you owe him an eye. An example is given in the next verse:
quote:
Exodus 21:26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.
If you take one eye, you give up all claim to the other one.
It's not an excuse for vengeance; it's a repayment scheme.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 08-26-2015 1:20 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 109 of 424 (767158)
08-26-2015 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Faith
08-25-2015 9:08 PM


I'm not required to treat Hinduism as a "valid religion," whatever that means. Far as I know I can call Hinduism a satanic idolatrous religion without being treated like a criminal. But the same is not true if I say the Bible calls homosexuality a sin and makes gay marriage a violation of God's marriage ordinance.
No.
Hence my offer of a wager.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Faith, posted 08-25-2015 9:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Faith, posted 08-26-2015 2:05 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 110 of 424 (767159)
08-26-2015 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Dr Adequate
08-26-2015 1:53 PM


Seems to me that the SCOTUS decision on gay marriage is already a fulfillment of my prediction that we bet about before, that things would get worse for Christians over the next few years or something like that. I'll wait for a few more incidents before I ask you to pay up though.
No more wagers. The timing of things is never certain. Things seem very close but often take longer than we expect even though they do finally occur. Christians seem to be a target of all the gay marriage action but it may take a while before it plays out in any clearcut way. Although the destruction of Christian businesses is already pretty clearcut.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-26-2015 1:53 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Taq, posted 08-27-2015 1:13 PM Faith has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 111 of 424 (767160)
08-26-2015 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Faith
08-25-2015 9:08 PM


Faith
"But the same is not true if I say the Bible calls homosexuality a sin and makes gay marriage a violation of God's marriage ordinance."
Two questions come to mind here.
If God wanted us to deny gays the right to seek loving life mates, and if that is cruel and anti-love, which it is, why did God create gays in the first place?
As to God's marriage ordinance. He would have created the divorce ordinance at the same time as the marriage one. Do you find that divorce ordinance moral and just and exactly what is it?
I ask because better than 50% of Christian marriages end in divorce so it seems that Christians have rejected God's marriage and divorce ordinances.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Faith, posted 08-25-2015 9:08 PM Faith has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 112 of 424 (767161)
08-26-2015 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Coyote
08-25-2015 9:22 PM


Re: Theology...
Coyote
In a sense you are correct but in a Gnostic Christian sense, you are wrong.
Said of Gnostic Christian versus Christian bible reading practices.
Both read the Bible day and night; but you read black where I read white.
William Blake.
I would take this further and advise you to read any scriptures from as many POV as is within you. Question everything including yourself.
The bible, if read as a book of wisdom, does have much wisdom though.
You just have to read it the way Gnostics do and revers a lot of the Christian morals.
Christians call evil good while Gnostic Christians call evil, evil.
I E. Gnostic Christians think that bible God, the demiurge to us, is quite immoral for thinking that torturing King David's baby for 6 days before finally killing it is good justice. Gnostic Christians think that evil while Christians think that a good form of justice.
Which group do you think is right?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Coyote, posted 08-25-2015 9:22 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Coyote, posted 08-26-2015 2:37 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 113 of 424 (767163)
08-26-2015 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by ringo
08-26-2015 12:00 PM


ringo
Altruistic acts can go only the one way. Love takes 2.
You cannot love alone.
You will know those you love and who love you by what you do for each other.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS7X3Xolq-I
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 08-26-2015 12:00 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by ringo, posted 08-27-2015 11:44 AM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 114 of 424 (767165)
08-26-2015 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Faith
08-26-2015 12:38 PM


Faith
??
When a prophet speaks, he speaks to all.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 08-26-2015 12:38 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Faith, posted 08-26-2015 2:41 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 115 of 424 (767166)
08-26-2015 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by ringo
08-26-2015 12:42 PM


ringo
Seems that most individuals are not taking their responsibilities to heart if you are correct. Then again, we live in oligarchies and not democracies.
If we did individually take responsibility for the state then the state would not allow what we presently have.
9 out of 10 Americans are completely wrong about this mind-blowing fact. - Upworthy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzQYA9Qjsi0
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by ringo, posted 08-26-2015 12:42 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by ringo, posted 08-27-2015 11:45 AM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 116 of 424 (767167)
08-26-2015 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Faith
08-26-2015 1:20 PM


Faith
Do you know what Gandhi said of an eye for an eye and do you agree with him?
"An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind."
If not, why not?
Do you know why he would have thought that an eye for an eye was not justice?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 08-26-2015 1:20 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Faith, posted 08-26-2015 2:58 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 117 of 424 (767168)
08-26-2015 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Greatest I am
08-26-2015 2:13 PM


Re: Theology...
Which group do you think is right?
I tend to ignore the religious beliefs of all 40,000 or so extant world religions.
That number alone should provide a major clue...

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Greatest I am, posted 08-26-2015 2:13 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Greatest I am, posted 08-26-2015 2:40 PM Coyote has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 118 of 424 (767169)
08-26-2015 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Coyote
08-26-2015 2:37 PM


Re: Theology...
Coyote
I was looking for your moral view.
Do you see Yahweh as a good God or an evil one?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Coyote, posted 08-26-2015 2:37 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Coyote, posted 08-26-2015 3:02 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 119 of 424 (767170)
08-26-2015 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Greatest I am
08-26-2015 2:23 PM


If Jesus meant to preach about how nations should prosecute criminals he would have preached to Pilate or perhaps even asked for an audience with Caesar. No, Jesus ALWAYS preached to individual believers, how we as individuals are to live. ALWAYS.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Greatest I am, posted 08-26-2015 2:23 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 120 of 424 (767172)
08-26-2015 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Greatest I am
08-26-2015 2:33 PM


No I do not agree with Gandhi. I consider that to be one of the stuppiddest things ever said by an otherwise great man.
The whole world blind? Nonsense. How often is an eye damaged anyway? A tooth? That formula is, I'll say it again, a statement of perfect justice, and as I've understood it the intention was to correct for the excesses tribal peoples brought to their revenge, such as putting out both eyes or lopping off the head for damage to one eye, or punching out all the teeth for the loss of one.
One eye for one eye, one tooth for one tooth, is perfect justice.
ABE: Jesus did not come to enforce the laws of justice. He came to teach us individual believers how to love our neighbors even when we are persecuted by them.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Greatest I am, posted 08-26-2015 2:33 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Greatest I am, posted 08-26-2015 3:08 PM Faith has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024