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Author Topic:   White Privilege
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 121 of 276 (767149)
08-26-2015 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Phat
08-26-2015 10:08 AM


Re: are we having a misunderstanding?
Phat writes:
Would any other groups get hurt by correcting such benefits?
I'm not hurt by wheelchair ramps.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Phat, posted 08-26-2015 10:08 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 122 of 276 (767164)
08-26-2015 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Phat
08-26-2015 10:08 AM


Re: are we having a misunderstanding?
Is awareness itself the solution? Or...are other measures needed....and if so, how would they be implemented?
From my Message 30 above, with emphasis:
quote:
You have no excuse for being unaware. Blacks, Hispanics, women have been screaming for decades about the subtle institutional inequities in this white-man's world. This is yet another call for you to FIND OUT! Unintentional bigotry, closeted unacknowledged racism, just continues the suffering in all of society.
If you remain unaware then you cannot help change the society through your vote, your conversations, your blog. If you do not stop, look and listen, if you do not learn, if you do not become aware, then you perpetuate the injustice. You are the oppressor whether it's active or not, whether you know it or not. We all are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Phat, posted 08-26-2015 10:08 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by xongsmith, posted 08-26-2015 3:31 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


(1)
Message 123 of 276 (767174)
08-26-2015 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Rrhain
08-26-2015 1:43 AM


Re: some privilege
Another thing about privilege, you don't have to think about it. It just is. If you can do something without having to think about it, or worry about consequences, while other people DO have to worry about consequences, due to their race/religion/age/gender, then it's a privilege.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Rrhain, posted 08-26-2015 1:43 AM Rrhain has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by ringo, posted 08-27-2015 12:24 PM ramoss has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 124 of 276 (767177)
08-26-2015 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by AZPaul3
08-26-2015 2:22 PM


Re: are we having a misunderstanding?
AZP with emphasis writes:
If you remain unaware then you cannot help change the society through your vote, your conversations, your blog. If you do not stop, look and listen, if you do not learn, if you do not become aware, then you perpetuate the injustice. You are the oppressor whether it's active or not, whether you know it or not. We all are.
Agree. But I couldn't help thinking this sounds a little like:
If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by AZPaul3, posted 08-26-2015 2:22 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by AZPaul3, posted 08-26-2015 3:40 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 125 of 276 (767178)
08-26-2015 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by xongsmith
08-26-2015 3:31 PM


Re: are we having a misunderstanding?
But I couldn't help thinking this sounds a little like:
If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem.
I was hoping it would sound exactly a lot like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by xongsmith, posted 08-26-2015 3:31 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 126 of 276 (767193)
08-26-2015 7:37 PM


Another Perspective
Looking around to find some different opinions on this, I stumbled on this fellow. I honestly don't even know what to quote, so I'm just gonna link to the whole thing:
Jesse Lee Peterson: "'White Privilege' Is Not What Is Holding Blacks Back Today" from cnsnews.com

Love your enemies!

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Rrhain, posted 08-27-2015 1:52 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 127 of 276 (767195)
08-26-2015 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Rrhain
08-26-2015 4:04 AM


Re: are we having a misunderstanding?
Incorrect. It doesn't mean that at all.
But about half the people participating in this thread are telling you that that's exactly what it means to them.
When you are framing the discussion in a way that alienates even the people who agree with you, it's time to consider whether that one term is so important or whether it could be done away with to improve the flow of dialogue.
Add to this the fact that the term is entirely meaningless, provokes no thought, and solves no problems and it really is a wonder why you're so damn attached to it.
Can't you give it up for the sake of getting somewhere?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Rrhain, posted 08-26-2015 4:04 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Rrhain, posted 08-27-2015 2:01 AM Jon has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


(1)
Message 128 of 276 (767212)
08-27-2015 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Tangle
08-26-2015 8:22 AM


Re: are we having a misunderstanding?
Tangle responds to me:
quote:
Except that you explain in the analogy that that is EXACTLY what it actually means when it is being used.
Incorrect. I explain it exactly opposite to the way you claim.
The existence of privilege is not a claim against the one who has the privilege. It is a claim against the society that creates it. Because even people who are not in the dominant group often help to sustain the privilege. Do you not know of the studies regarding how children view race? An array of identical cartoon people are shown to children, wearing the same thing and in the same pose, the only difference being the skin color ranging from very pale to very deep. They are then asked to indicate which one is the "most friendly" or "most naughty" or "most likely to help you" or "most likely to get in trouble."
And across all races, children associate being lighter skinned with more positive traits and being darker skinned with more negative traits. Even black people have this vision of black people being not as worthy and it starts early.
Again, this doesn't mean that any white person is actively trying to keep black people down. But it does mean that he lives in a world that is going to lift him up. To deny that reality is the problem because it means that it will never go away. By refusing to acknowledge the way society works, often through unconscious means, to perpetuate racism, you guarantee that racism will continue to flourish.
quote:
This is what you said in response to the no-leg/both legs analagy - my emphasis.
He's not going around deliberately trying to keep amputees down. He's simply benefitting from the better treatment he is receiving from the world around him. That isn't a negative.
The implication is that the white man is deliberately keeping the black man down
(*blink!*)
You did not just say that, did you? A direct statement that the white person is not doing something is an implication that he is?
Privilege isn't something you wield over others. It's something that others place upon you. That's why it is not, cannot be a negative against the person who has it. You don't get to tell other people that you're white and demand that they treat you better. It's something they do all on their own. How can you possibly be at fault for the behaviour of other people? You didn't create the view in their mind about how white people are. You didn't make them consider you in another way. You didn't make them decide to treat you differently. But they still did. You are still being treated better because of your race.
That isn't your fault.
But to deny that reality is your fault. To get angry or upset because it's being pointed out is your fault.
quote:
which I say is a racist slander that can only harm society as a whole by labelling all white people as oppressors.
Then how fortunate that the only person who made that claim was you. The only person trying to insinuate that "white privilege" is a "racist slander" that "labels all white people as oppressors" is you.
quote:
I've repeated myself too much to no avail, 'there's none so blind as wil not see.'
Physician, heal thyself.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2015 8:22 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


(1)
Message 129 of 276 (767213)
08-27-2015 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Jon
08-26-2015 7:37 PM


Re: Another Perspective
Jon quotes CNS.
Really? You expect us to take CNS seriously? A racist, sexist, homophobic source is where you're going to for intelligent analysis on discrimination?
Let's take a look at what it brings up:
* Black-on-black crime. How does black-on-black crime have any bearing on white cops killing black people? Let's ignore the fact that the subject itself is completely invalid (that somehow blacks are "more criminal" than whites...can you smell the racism?) I want to understand how even if it were true it is relevant. How does the action of blacks with regard to each other justify a white cop's killing of a black person?
* Out-of-wedlock births. Again, what does this have to do with anything?
* War on Poverty/affirmative action claims that black people have been recipients of undeserving welfare making them morally broken. It even claims that there is "black privilege" because of this.
I love this quote:
Blacks can say whatever they want about whites with little fear of criticism or backlash.
Hah! Look at the conversation we're having.
So I have to ask again: What on earth were you thinking using CNS as a source?
Edited by Rrhain, : Fixed a formatting issue.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Jon, posted 08-26-2015 7:37 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Jon, posted 08-27-2015 7:18 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 130 of 276 (767214)
08-27-2015 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Jon
08-26-2015 7:55 PM


Re: are we having a misunderstanding?
Jon responds to me:
quote:
But about half the people participating in this thread are telling you that that's exactly what it means to them.
Just because two million people do a dumb thing, it's still a dumb thing. We don't accept the false claims of creationists about what evolution means because they are wrong. They don't understand what it is or how it works, so why should we pretend that there is some "controversy"?
I get that Tangle wants it to be a slur against white people, but the only person making it so is him.
And then there's you, who tries to palm off a racist as some sort of legitimate source to consider with regard to race.
quote:
Can't you give it up for the sake of getting somewhere?
Strange, that's my argument to you. It is a very meaningful term, provokes quite a bit of thought, and solves actual problems so it really is a wonder why you're so upset over it.
Can't you give up your obstinacy for the sake of getting somewhere? Your claims are trivially shown to be false by simple inspection. Remember, you're the one who is dismissing an entire movement based upon the actions of two people who aren't actually connected to the movement.
As a friend of mine put it, if your outlook can be changed by someone talking to you for fifteen minutes, then it wasn't your outlook to begin with.
So let's be honest: You never really had any respect for the Black Lives Matter movement.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Jon, posted 08-26-2015 7:55 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Jon, posted 08-27-2015 7:54 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 276 (767223)
08-27-2015 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Rrhain
08-27-2015 1:52 AM


Re: Another Perspective
A source for what?
I was just looking around for other opinions.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Rrhain, posted 08-27-2015 1:52 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Rrhain, posted 08-28-2015 2:26 AM Jon has not replied
 Message 140 by Rrhain, posted 08-28-2015 2:27 AM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 276 (767229)
08-27-2015 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Rrhain
08-27-2015 2:01 AM


Re: are we having a misunderstanding?
You care so little about the welfare of African Americans that you cannot give up your bimboisms so that you and people who agree with you can stop arguing about terminology and get to the issue of how to solve real problems. While you accuse everyone else of being petty, you yourself refuse to take the high road.
It's clear to me, Rrhain, from your unwillingness to offer any suggestions anywhere (you've had two threads to do as much) that you aren't sincerely interested in improving the welfare of minorities in this country. You are so glued to the term 'white privilege' because you can use it exactly as Tangle accuses you of using it: as an accusatory slur. Going around calling other people racists may help you sleep at night with dreams of holier-than-thou self-righteousness, but it doesn't get African Americans out of prison; it doesn't keep bullets out of bodies; it doesn't put kids in school.
I've started a new thread for anyone who honestly cares about this subject:
Improving the Welfare of Minorities - Slogans Not Allowed
Real problems need real solutions; not you and your white bashing.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Rrhain, posted 08-27-2015 2:01 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by ringo, posted 08-27-2015 1:13 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied
 Message 141 by Rrhain, posted 08-28-2015 2:49 AM Jon has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 133 of 276 (767231)
08-27-2015 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Rrhain
08-26-2015 1:58 AM


#alllivesmatter
... It's why the "#AllLivesMatter" backlash is the problem: It isn't that white people don't have problems. It's that black lives have different problems that need to be addressed directly in order to have them fixed and to sidetrack and distract from that focus will ensure that they never get fixed. ...
My take on this is an analogy to a swimming pool full of people, one person is drowning and someone tells the lifeguard #drowninglivesmatter ... someone replies that #allswimmerlivesmatter, and while both are true, only one needs help.
Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Rrhain, posted 08-26-2015 1:58 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 134 of 276 (767256)
08-27-2015 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by ramoss
08-26-2015 3:02 PM


Re: some privilege
ramoss writes:
If you can do something without having to think about it, or worry about consequences, while other people DO have to worry about consequences, due to their race/religion/age/gender, then it's a privilege.
I only think about wheelchairs when I see a wheelchair ramp, not when I climb the stairs. It's a privilege to be able to walk.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by ramoss, posted 08-26-2015 3:02 PM ramoss has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Tangle, posted 08-27-2015 1:14 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 135 of 276 (767267)
08-27-2015 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Jon
08-27-2015 7:54 AM


Re: are we having a misunderstanding?
Jon writes:
You care so little about the welfare of African Americans that you cannot give up your bimboisms....
What the hell are "bimboisms"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Jon, posted 08-27-2015 7:54 AM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
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