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Author Topic:   Religions are fairy tales for adults. Should we encourage them to grow up?
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 121 of 424 (767173)
08-26-2015 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Greatest I am
08-26-2015 2:40 PM


Re: Theology...
Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child.
Robert A. Heinlein

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Greatest I am, posted 08-26-2015 2:40 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Greatest I am, posted 08-26-2015 3:10 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 122 of 424 (767175)
08-26-2015 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Faith
08-26-2015 2:58 PM


Faith
You do not seem aware that eye for an eye is a metaphor that means that like should be returned for like.
Ghandi did not agree and neither did Jesus.
So why are you not agreeing with both Jesus and Ghandi?
If you do think that that saying is to be taken literally instead of as a metaphor, how would you deal with rape?
Would you find a gay man to rape the man that raped you for instance?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Faith, posted 08-26-2015 2:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 08-26-2015 3:42 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 123 of 424 (767176)
08-26-2015 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Coyote
08-26-2015 3:02 PM


Re: Theology...
Coyote
That did not answer my question.
Seems you like to quote your God as much as a bible thumper. The least you could do is quote an appropriate answer.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Coyote, posted 08-26-2015 3:02 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 124 of 424 (767180)
08-26-2015 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Greatest I am
08-26-2015 3:08 PM


It IS a metaphor fer cryin out loud. Or a Principle. Good grief. It is a perfect expression of perfect justice. As I said, it was most likely originally intended to put an end to excessive punishments. There is nothing wrong with the formula.
Jesus made it the basis for His instruction to His disciples for how we all should personally deal with injustices to ourselves.
Back in Jacob's time, his sons went off and murdered a whole clan because one of the sons raped their sister. That's an example of the tribal "justice" eye for an eye would have corrected by some form of punishment fitting the crime.
Jesus' teaching is NOT intended for the criminal justice system. Good grief.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Greatest I am, posted 08-26-2015 3:08 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Greatest I am, posted 08-26-2015 3:57 PM Faith has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 125 of 424 (767181)
08-26-2015 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Faith
08-26-2015 3:42 PM


Faith
Yet God is supposed to return and put his law in place here.
Jesus did not preach an eye for an eye and that has already been explained to you by ringo.
You are quite cavalier with your poorly thought out answers.
But let me continue to educate you of your own theology.
Romans 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Does that saying say that perfect justice is an eye for an eye?
I ask again. If you are raped, should we find a big gay man to rape your assailant?
If not, what penalty would you demand?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 08-26-2015 3:42 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Faith, posted 08-26-2015 4:23 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 126 of 424 (767183)
08-26-2015 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Greatest I am
08-26-2015 3:57 PM


You are having a terrible time following the argument. I never said Jesus preached eye for an eye, He preached against it because He was preaching to individuals. People make the dumb mistake of thinking His preaching applies to the criminal justice system, so I've been answering that, since Jesus taught individuals and didn't address the powers that be, and in answering it I've had to defend the principle of eye for an eye as the perfect justice it is, and perfect justice is what the criminal justice system should aim for. Romans 12:21 is also for individual believers and not for the criminal justice system. Your thinking is so confused you probably won't understand this either but try.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Greatest I am, posted 08-26-2015 3:57 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-26-2015 6:08 PM Faith has replied
 Message 128 by Greatest I am, posted 08-26-2015 6:22 PM Faith has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 127 of 424 (767186)
08-26-2015 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Faith
08-26-2015 4:23 PM


People make the dumb mistake of thinking His preaching applies to the criminal justice system, so I've been answering that, since Jesus taught individuals and didn't address the powers that be ...
Quite so. What God said should by no means form any part of our legal system, except maybe the bits about being mean to gay people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Faith, posted 08-26-2015 4:23 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Faith, posted 08-26-2015 7:17 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 128 of 424 (767187)
08-26-2015 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Faith
08-26-2015 4:23 PM


Faith
What you do not understand is that an eye for an eye is not perfect for either a good theology or a good philosophy.
It is garbage to either individuals or groups be they religious or secular.
The murderer is not born a murderer. He is a product of all around him that have contributed to what he is and thus any culpability should be divided and that makes an eye for an eye overkill as it ignores all who have made him what he is.
You, like your homophobic and misogynistic religion, have satanic morals and have no conception of what Jesus was actually trying to teach you.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Faith, posted 08-26-2015 4:23 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Faith, posted 08-26-2015 7:19 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 129 of 424 (767189)
08-26-2015 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Dr Adequate
08-26-2015 6:08 PM


No, what God said should and did have plenty to do with our justice system, back when it was rational and based on the Ten Commandments. Jesus was not speaking to the justice system but to individual believers. Eye for an eye is a principle of perfect justice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-26-2015 6:08 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by ringo, posted 08-27-2015 11:52 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 141 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-27-2015 12:05 PM Faith has replied
 Message 149 by Taq, posted 08-27-2015 1:15 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 130 of 424 (767190)
08-26-2015 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Greatest I am
08-26-2015 6:22 PM


You are just not thinking, just as Gandhi wasn't, and most aren't when it comes to eye for an eye. So you think the justice system should turn the other cheek to the murderer? The death penalty is the perfect justice for a willful murderer seems to me.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Greatest I am, posted 08-26-2015 6:22 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Greatest I am, posted 08-26-2015 7:26 PM Faith has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 131 of 424 (767191)
08-26-2015 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Faith
08-26-2015 7:19 PM


Faith
Yes I know.
You ignore a lot of scriptures to maintain your hate.
You have also given up your humanity.
I am done with you here.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Faith, posted 08-26-2015 7:19 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Faith, posted 08-26-2015 7:57 PM Greatest I am has not replied
 Message 133 by kbertsche, posted 08-26-2015 9:57 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 132 of 424 (767196)
08-26-2015 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Greatest I am
08-26-2015 7:26 PM


.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Greatest I am, posted 08-26-2015 7:26 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2132 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 133 of 424 (767206)
08-26-2015 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Greatest I am
08-26-2015 7:26 PM


Greatest I Am,
You have spent many pages arguing with Faith about the relation of Christianity to the modern judicial system. I don't see how this relates to your contention that "Religions are fairy tales for adults."
This issue (the relation of Christianity to the modern judicial system) is NOT a primary issue of the Christian faith. There is no unanimity on this among Christians. Besides the Catholic perspective(s?), there are three major Protestant perspectives on this topic. (Faith's perspective follows Calvin. While I agree with Calvin (and Faith) on many fundamental issues, on this issue I am more in line with Luther.)
Even if you can prove Faith wrong on this secondary point, you have not proven that "Religions are fairy tales for adults." Instead of focusing on such secondary issues, why don't you focus on the primary, fundamental tenets of the Christian faith, or of all religions in general?

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Greatest I am, posted 08-26-2015 7:26 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Greatest I am, posted 08-27-2015 7:52 AM kbertsche has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 134 of 424 (767227)
08-27-2015 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by kbertsche
08-26-2015 9:57 PM


kbertsche
True that we got sidetracked. I do not usually ignore moral questions as religions are supposed to be all about morals and Christian and Muslim morals are leading them to homophobia and misogyny and are obviously poor at best.
As to proof that religions are fairy tales, talking snakes and donkeys should be enough to convince anyone with a brain.
"This issue (the relation of Christianity to the modern judicial system) is NOT a primary issue of the Christian faith."
You are correct on this. Christians will always choose secular law and never bible law as they know that bible law is garbage law and draconian at best.
They are Christian but not that stupid.
I can never prove Faith wrong to herself because she lies to herself.
She has not really been addressing my questions. Just repeating herself as she has no real argument.
Regards
DL
Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by kbertsche, posted 08-26-2015 9:57 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 135 of 424 (767240)
08-27-2015 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Greatest I am
08-26-2015 2:21 PM


Greatest I am writes:
Altruistic acts can go only the one way. Love takes 2.
You keep repeating yourself but you're still wrong. What's the difference between altruism and love?
Greatest I am writes:
You will know those you love and who love you by what you do for each other.
You will know those you love by what you are willing to do for them. You will know who loves you by what they do for you. Love can go in either direction or both.
Parents will do almost anything for their children whether the children do anything in return or not. Are you claiming that parents don't love their children?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Greatest I am, posted 08-26-2015 2:21 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Greatest I am, posted 08-27-2015 12:00 PM ringo has replied

  
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