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Author Topic:   Religions are fairy tales for adults. Should we encourage them to grow up?
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 136 of 424 (767241)
08-27-2015 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Greatest I am
08-26-2015 2:27 PM


Greatest I am writes:
Then again, we live in oligarchies and not democracies.
Try to be wrong about one thing at a time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Greatest I am, posted 08-26-2015 2:27 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Greatest I am, posted 08-27-2015 11:50 AM ringo has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 137 of 424 (767242)
08-27-2015 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by ringo
08-27-2015 11:45 AM


Canadians are usually better thinkers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzQYA9Qjsi0
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by ringo, posted 08-27-2015 11:45 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by ringo, posted 08-27-2015 11:54 AM Greatest I am has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 138 of 424 (767243)
08-27-2015 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Faith
08-26-2015 7:17 PM


Faith writes:
No, what God said should and did have plenty to do with our justice system, back when it was rational and based on the Ten Commandments.
The problem is that you're not reading the Ten Commandments. An eye for an eye is about compensation, not retribution. That is what perfect justice is about - fixing the problem as much as possible rather than compounding it (as Gandhi said).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Faith, posted 08-26-2015 7:17 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Greatest I am, posted 08-27-2015 12:12 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 139 of 424 (767244)
08-27-2015 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Greatest I am
08-27-2015 11:50 AM


Greatest I am writes:
Canadians are usually better thinkers.
Thank you. I'm from Saskatchewan.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Greatest I am, posted 08-27-2015 11:50 AM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 140 of 424 (767246)
08-27-2015 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by ringo
08-27-2015 11:44 AM


ringo
No.
I am claiming that for love to be real love it takes two.
Your own words say the same thing.
"You will know those you love by what you are willing to do for them. You will know who loves you by what they do for you."
Even a parent of a child born in a vegetative state will love his or her child on the assumption that the child would love them back if it could. Vegetative children cannot love so that love cannot be what I describe as true love nor can it fit what you yourself wrote above.
I know that you are splitting hairs and do not like my wide brush but I don't care as my statement is a true statement.
I love Shania but without knowing me and feeling the same, I would be stupid to call that true love and would cheapen the meaning the way you are doing.
Regards
DL
Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by ringo, posted 08-27-2015 11:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by ringo, posted 08-27-2015 12:13 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 141 of 424 (767248)
08-27-2015 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Faith
08-26-2015 7:17 PM


No, what God said should and did have plenty to do with our justice system, back when it was rational and based on the Ten Commandments.
It never was, Faith. Otherwise someone would have stoned your grandparents to death for working on Saturday, and we would not be having this conversation.
Jesus was not speaking to the justice system but to individual believers. Eye for an eye is a principle of perfect justice.
You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic,[a] let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.
And I'm not sure I follow your argument about individual believers. You seem to be saying that we personally should behave and turn our hearts towards what Jesus said about forgiveness, but that we should at the same time direct the State, which is under our command, towards Old Testament notions of retribution.
I don't see how you can get that to work. To understand my bafflement, imagine an ancient Roman saying "I don't personally think that Christians should be thrown to the lions. I do, however, have a sincerely held religious belief that the Emperor Nero should throw the Christians to the lions, and I will support him in that endeavor in whatever way I can."
He has, you see, a personal morality, which affects no-one and nothing except his good opinion of himself, and then also he has a public morality which will hurt the people he hates while (as he thinks) keeping his hands and conscience clean.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Faith, posted 08-26-2015 7:17 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Faith, posted 08-27-2015 2:13 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 142 of 424 (767252)
08-27-2015 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by ringo
08-27-2015 11:52 AM


ringo
Have you seen this on the commandments that Faith likes so much?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u3z69YpLx0#t=100
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by ringo, posted 08-27-2015 11:52 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by ringo, posted 08-27-2015 12:15 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 143 of 424 (767253)
08-27-2015 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Greatest I am
08-27-2015 12:00 PM


Greatest I am writes:
Your own words say the same thing.
"You will know those you love by what you are willing to do for them. You will know who loves you by what they do for you."
Try reading it again. The people you love are not necessarily the people who love you.
Greatest I am writes:
Even a parent of a child born in a vegetative state will love his or her child on the assumption that the child would love them back if it could.
Haven't you ever heard of unconditional love?
Greatest I am writes:
Vegetative children cannot love so that love cannot be what I describe as true love nor can it fit what you yourself wrote above.
So you're using the No True Scotsman fallacy: it isn't "true" love unless it fits your definition.
Greatest I am writes:
I love Shania but with knowing me and feeling the same, I would be stupid to call that true love and would cheapen the meaning the way you are doing.
So you've moved the goalposts from "love" to "true love". You admit you love Shania even though she doesn't know you exist, much less reciprocate. That's what we've been talking about, not the "true love" mumbo-jumbo that you just made up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Greatest I am, posted 08-27-2015 12:00 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 144 of 424 (767254)
08-27-2015 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Greatest I am
08-27-2015 12:12 PM


Greatest I am writes:
Have you seen this on the commandments that Faith likes so much?
I'm on a public library computer, so I can't use the sound. And on principle I don't follow your video links anyway. If you have a point, make it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Greatest I am, posted 08-27-2015 12:12 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Greatest I am, posted 08-27-2015 12:22 PM ringo has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 145 of 424 (767255)
08-27-2015 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by ringo
08-27-2015 12:15 PM


ringo
My point is that they are garbage.
As to love, like faith according to St. James, you will know them by their works and deeds so love, like faith, have conditions.
That Shania thing was to make a point. I should have perhaps shown that but have never needed to do so to for people to understand.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by ringo, posted 08-27-2015 12:15 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by ringo, posted 08-27-2015 12:34 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 146 of 424 (767258)
08-27-2015 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Greatest I am
08-27-2015 12:22 PM


Greatest I am writes:
My point is that they are garbage.
The Ten Commandments are not garbage. Judaism has come to understand them in a constructive way rather than a destructive way like Faith does.
Greatest I am writes:
As to love, like faith according to St. James, you will know them by their works and deeds so love, like faith, have conditions.
Yes, and reciprocity is NOT a condition, either in love or in faith.
Greatest I am writes:
That Shania thing was to make a point. I should have perhaps shown that but have never needed to do so to for people to understand.
You need to now. Make your point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Greatest I am, posted 08-27-2015 12:22 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 147 of 424 (767264)
08-27-2015 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Faith
08-25-2015 9:08 PM


I'm not required to treat Hinduism as a "valid religion," whatever that means.
Yes, you are, in the same way that you are required to treat homosexual marriages as valid.
Far as I know I can call Hinduism a satanic idolatrous religion without being treated like a criminal. But the same is not true if I say the Bible calls homosexuality a sin and makes gay marriage a violation of God's marriage ordinance.
No one is being arrested for calling homosexuality a sin. There is no law that would jail people who call homosexuality a sin. You are making this up. You may remember that lying goes against one of the 10 Commandments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Faith, posted 08-25-2015 9:08 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 148 of 424 (767266)
08-27-2015 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Faith
08-26-2015 2:05 PM


Seems to me that the SCOTUS decision on gay marriage is already a fulfillment of my prediction that we bet about before, that things would get worse for Christians over the next few years or something like that.
How have things become worse for christians because of that decision? Nothing in the SCOTUS decision dealt with discrimination against homosexuals on the parts of individuals or businesses. In most states you still have the ability to use your hatred of homosexuals against them.
Christians seem to be a target of all the gay marriage action but it may take a while before it plays out in any clearcut way.
Nothing in the lives of christians changed one wit because of the SCOTUS decision.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Faith, posted 08-26-2015 2:05 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by kbertsche, posted 08-27-2015 1:47 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 149 of 424 (767270)
08-27-2015 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Faith
08-26-2015 7:17 PM


No, what God said should and did have plenty to do with our justice system, back when it was rational and based on the Ten Commandments
What was the very first commandment? How should that commandment be implemented in the US justice system?
Where is homosexuality mentioned in 10 Commandments?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Faith, posted 08-26-2015 7:17 PM Faith has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2132 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 150 of 424 (767273)
08-27-2015 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Taq
08-27-2015 1:13 PM


FYI, the majority opinion of the recent SCOTUS decision on gay marriage included this section:
SCOTUS writes:
"Finally, it must be emphasized that religions, and those who adhere to religious doctrines, may continue to advocate with utmost, sincere conviction that, by divine precepts, same-sex marriage should not be condoned. The First Amendment ensures that religious organizations and persons are given proper protection as they seek to teach the principles that are so fulfilling and so central to their lives and faiths, and to their own deep aspirations to continue the family structure they have long revered. The same is true of those who oppose same-sex marriage for other reasons."

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Taq, posted 08-27-2015 1:13 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Faith, posted 08-27-2015 2:03 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
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