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Author Topic:   The Nonsense of Revelation 13 Economics
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 2809 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 123 of 274 (767365)
08-28-2015 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by PaulK
08-28-2015 3:13 PM


Re: Beasties and Bibles
"To start with I note that you gloss over Daniel 8, which should be surprising since it is the obvious starting place."
This king was certainly not Antiochus IV, but the future little horn of Daniel 7:7-25 .... the exact career of Antiochus is found here [Daniel 11:21-35] .... given in advance
The following describes the coming little horn, a king of the northern Middle East at the time of the end still pending
Daniel
8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.
8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
8:15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
8:18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.
8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
Antiochus IV simply did not fulfill the above profile 100% for many reasons
Similar actions yes, but not all that the little horn will do which Antiochus did not do:
Daniel
8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
Neither did Antiochus IV fulfill the events of Daniel 7:7-25 .... and certainly not those of 11:36-45; 12:7
The little horn and king of the north in these visions will be completely possessed by Satan's beast of Revelation's unfolding .... this is evidenced by comparing both Daniel and Revelation accounts .... in Revelation the little horn has become the beast
Sorry, but I can not agree with your rendition of the little horn which is not validated by the related prophetic scriptures, and by the historical record
Your major error as I see it is the failure to recognize the breach of silence in the prophet's visions between the ending of the Seleucid kingdom of the north just before the first century .... and the beginning of the little horn's kingdom still pending
This same lapsing is also between the Lord's cutting off and the beginning of His next intervention to bring judgment
The period of His dispensation of grace lies in the breach still ongoing at this time
And many historical and significant events upon the earth the same .... you will not find any of them in the prophetic visions [70 AD, the crusades, inquisitions, French revolution, WWI, WWII, etc.]
But the day is coming when He will no longer tarry [Romans 11:25] .... and the unfulfilled visions of His prophets will roll
Could be before this day is over ...............
Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.
Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.
Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.
Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.
Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 3:13 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 4:40 PM Straightshot has not replied

  
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 2809 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 125 of 274 (767368)
08-28-2015 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Faith
08-28-2015 4:17 PM


Re: Reply button problem
"I could probably bury a Preterist myself. I don't recall running across any of those here but you 'll find every kind of unbeliever and apostate or liberal "believer" here otherwise.
Straightshot, again you hit the wrong reply button. It gets confusing. It looks like you are replying to ramoss but the content of your post is a reply to me. You seem to be skipping posts and hitting the reply for the post after the one you intend to answer or something like that"
Notice that I paste and place "quotes" around a significant part of poster's response ... then I respond
My response was to ramoss
I do not use the quote button on the forum .... or on any forum for that matter
Reason .... to avoid the unnecessary repeating of scads of the details of a previous posting of any poster
Look for your specific statement in quotation marks .... followed by my response
And I would hope that you could defend what you believe against preteristic teaching .... the Christian message boards are overrun by the same today
This dogma is held by most of the professing "church" today, and has been for centuries
Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.
Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.
Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.
Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 4:17 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 4:44 PM Straightshot has not replied
 Message 128 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 4:44 PM Straightshot has replied

  
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 2809 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 129 of 274 (767372)
08-28-2015 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by PaulK
08-28-2015 4:44 PM


Re: Reply button problem
"Again, Daniel 8 clearly identifies the little horn as a Diadochi ruler. The Diadochi states are long gone - their "latter days" passed before Jesus was born. Thus the prophecy failed.
And really Antiochus was a proud, crafty and succesful ruler, promoting his own worship as Zeus, so he fits the description in Daniel 8 rather well (especially if we allow that 8:10 is certainly symbolic)"
Sorry, I have to disagree with your view .... and Daniel 8:10 is not symbolic. but literal
The little horn will have the supernatural power to do these things .... he will be empowered by Satan's beast of the abyss, a fallen angel like Satan [Revelation 9:11; 11;7; 13:1-4; 17:8-18]
Satan's beast is not human, but a fallen angel who will shake the earth to its very foundation during the coming tribulation .... billions will die in his wake
This destroying angel will do Satan's bidding on the earth at the time of the end and all that he sets out to do will succeed .... one who can make war far beyond any human invention of warfare [Revelation 13:4]
Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 4:44 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 5:04 PM Straightshot has not replied
 Message 131 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 5:11 PM Straightshot has replied

  
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 2809 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 130 of 274 (767373)
08-28-2015 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Straightshot
08-28-2015 5:01 PM


Re: Reply button problem
"You are missing the point, Straightshot. You criticized what I wrote thinking you were criticizing Ramoss. You MUST use the right Reply button. REPLY button. I said nothing about the Quote button."
I am using the "right" reply button next to the "peek" button
And when I review the posting it looks right to me on my screen
So where is the button to use?
Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 5:01 PM Straightshot has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 5:24 PM Straightshot has replied

  
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 2809 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 132 of 274 (767375)
08-28-2015 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by PaulK
08-28-2015 5:11 PM


Re: Reply button problem
"It seems that your claims were empty boasting after all"
Now I see that you are resorting to character judgment and I have to tell you that this kind of behavior will not get response from me going forward

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 5:11 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 5:27 PM Straightshot has replied

  
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 2809 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 134 of 274 (767378)
08-28-2015 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Faith
08-28-2015 5:24 PM


Re: Reply button problem
"You seem to be skipping posts and using the Reply button to the post after the one you intend to reply to"
OK .... what about this one?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 5:24 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 5:32 PM Straightshot has replied

  
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 2809 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 137 of 274 (767381)
08-28-2015 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by PaulK
08-28-2015 5:27 PM


Re: Reply button problem
"Has been demonstrated to be false. You do not have the proof."
That's is your opinion only Paulk .... Satan's coming "antichrist" will make Antiochus IV look like a country bumpkin
One who gained position by fraud and default .... and he failed to put humpty dumpty [Alexander's holdings] back together again .... he could not and did conquer Egypt
The little horn will [Daniel 11:40; 11:42] .... at the time of the end still pending
No symbolism .... literal reality
And unless you are willing to modify your demeanor in a discussion between us, I will no longer respond to you
Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.
Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 5:27 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 5:45 PM Straightshot has replied

  
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 2809 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 138 of 274 (767383)
08-28-2015 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Faith
08-28-2015 5:32 PM


Re: Reply button problem
"That one is fine, right reply button. Thanks"
I do not use any other button for replies, so there must be something else going on
Let me know again when this does not work

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 5:32 PM Faith has not replied

  
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 2809 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 140 of 274 (767386)
08-28-2015 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by PaulK
08-28-2015 5:45 PM


Re: Reply button problem
Did you hear what I said to you Paulk?
.... and do you know what this means?
Daniel
11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: "because it is yet for a time appointed."
Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.
Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 5:45 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 6:09 PM Straightshot has replied

  
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 2809 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 142 of 274 (767400)
08-28-2015 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by PaulK
08-28-2015 6:09 PM


Re: Reply button problem
Believe that I can, but will not for you unless you change your attitude
I intend to address all of the details of the prophetic scriptures as I see fit
So you will have to look for them as I move forward .... your choice
.... and actually you have shown nothing of the kind as you tell above
The preteristic view of Bible prophecy attempts to push large portions of future unfulfilled prophecy into the past in order to protect preconceived organizational dogmas
The methodology used is to switch from the literal to the metaphorical/allegorical interpretation when convenient
The preteristic behavioral adventure is to systematically destroy the Lord's more sure word of prophecy
.... not a good idea
I do not recommend the practice
Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.
Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.
Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 6:09 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by PaulK, posted 08-29-2015 5:15 AM Straightshot has replied

  
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 2809 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 144 of 274 (767420)
08-29-2015 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by PaulK
08-29-2015 5:15 AM


Re: this is a debate site
Yes you do Paulk
[Daniel 8:10]
Interpret Zechariah 14 for the forum
Your response will reveal much about you

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by PaulK, posted 08-29-2015 5:15 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by PaulK, posted 08-29-2015 7:34 AM Straightshot has replied

  
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 2809 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 146 of 274 (767446)
08-29-2015 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by PaulK
08-29-2015 7:34 AM


Re: this is a debate site
Good for you Paulk .... to each his own
I interpret the literal ..... as literal
And the symbolic is always defined within the immediate context, or in some other related scripture(s) .... literally
Once one learns the relationship between the symbol and its definition .... it is a slam dunk
The Lord is not a God of confusion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by PaulK, posted 08-29-2015 7:34 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by PaulK, posted 08-30-2015 3:02 AM Straightshot has replied

  
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 2809 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 148 of 274 (767503)
08-30-2015 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by PaulK
08-30-2015 3:02 AM


Re: this is a debate site
For the forum:
Here is the break between the rule of Antiochus IV, the last king of the north [Daniel 11:21-25] ....... and the next king of the north [the little horn] at the time appointed [Daniel 11:36-45; 12:7; Micah 5:5-6; Revelation 13:1-4]
Not the same rulers, but living centuries apart with different profiles
Do not let Paulk fool you
He is preteristic in his thinking and meddles with interpretive attempts to relegate unfulfilled prophecy into the past
This kind of thinking also does the same thing with the future time of Jacob's Israel's trouble [Jeremiah 30] and the coming Islamic Caliph's invasion and occupation of Israel [Daniel 11:41; Zechariah: 12; 13; 14; Matthew 24:15-16; Luke 21:20-36; Revelation 11:2; 12:6-12:14]
The preterist claims that all of the above taken together occurred at the Roman incursions in 70 AD
Anyone reading the above scriptures can see that all of the events taken together simply have never taken place in the past
And this is why Paulk refuses to interpret Zechariah 14 .... the entire passage is of future unfulfilled events .... these things cannot possibly be relegated to any historical setting
So the preterist has to commit selective metaphorical/allegory in an attempt to destroy the prophet's future predictions
And this behavior is the confusion of preterism .... drawing the line between passed fulfilled prophecy with that which is yet to come in the wrong place
Even to the extent that the Lord has already returned by placing this event into the past .... in 70 AD
Preterism on this scale is dangerously skewed and the hallmark of most of the membership of the professing church today
Here is the Lord's warning to the same
Revelation
3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Any who have been deceived by the dogma of preterism living at the time of His next intervention to bring judgment are at great risk and these will be tossed into His unprecedented wrath upon the earth
.... and the same will face the severe persecutions of Satan's beast and false prophet
If any reading this post end up in the coming tribulation, know that your repentance and turning to the Lord will be required .... otherwise you will be rejected by Him and lost forever with no recourse [Revelation 20:11-15]
Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.
Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.
Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.
Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.
Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.
Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.
Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by PaulK, posted 08-30-2015 3:02 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by PaulK, posted 08-30-2015 8:32 AM Straightshot has replied

  
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 2809 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 150 of 274 (767512)
08-30-2015 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by PaulK
08-30-2015 8:32 AM


Re: this is a debate site
Daniel 8 is what it is Paulk .... a revelation of the little horn of the time of the end still pending
Now .... you give your interpretation of Zechariah 14
If you do not do this, then we will see quite enough about you to begin with
.... and if you do .... if you can .... this will tell the forum much about you and what you are up to
So you see I am not telling the forum to ignore you .... this is your chance to be recognized
Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.
Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by PaulK, posted 08-30-2015 8:32 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Straightshot, posted 08-30-2015 11:04 AM Straightshot has not replied
 Message 152 by PaulK, posted 08-30-2015 11:15 AM Straightshot has not replied

  
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 2809 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 151 of 274 (767514)
08-30-2015 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Straightshot
08-30-2015 9:54 AM


Re: this is a debate site
Back to the OP
Many interpreters today have speculative theories that are not correct renderings of Revelation 13 with respect to the buying and selling environment of the beast's economy
His followers will accept his marking because they will want to identify with him and will follow his buy/sell economy
The same will also impose this upon all humans living in the region of the beast's Middle Eastern kingdom, and those who refuse to worship the beast and at the same time refuse the mark will be vulnerable to to the killing by him, his false prophet, and followers
Much of what is speculated today about chip implants, personal ID numbering, etc is bogus and not supported by Revelation 13's view
Those who refuse the beast's ID marking will be outcasts and threatened with death .... this is happening as we speak in the Islamic Middle East
ISIS Muslim terrorists are engaged in the same practice already
Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Straightshot, posted 08-30-2015 9:54 AM Straightshot has not replied

  
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