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Author Topic:   What is Christianity?
Phat
Member
Posts: 15993
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 271 of 451 (765838)
08-06-2015 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by ringo
06-22-2015 12:11 PM


Re: So yet another definition tossed out for consideration
ringo writes:

I seem to recall iano saying that the best place to learn "the gospel" is in Romans.

Yeah, they(the typical mainline protestant churches) taught us the "Romans Road" to salvation.

Got Questions.org writes:

The Romans Road to salvation is a way of explaining the good news of salvation using verses from the Book of Romans. It is a simple yet powerful method of explaining why we need salvation, how God provided salvation, how we can receive salvation, and what are the results of salvation.

The first verse on the Romans Road to salvation is Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." We have all sinned. We have all done things that are displeasing to God. There is no one who is innocent. Romans 3:10-18 gives a detailed picture of what sin looks like in our lives. The second Scripture on the Romans Road to salvation, Romans 6:23, teaches us about the consequences of sin - "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." The punishment that we have earned for our sins is death. Not just physical death, but eternal death!

The third verse on the Romans Road to salvation picks up where Romans 6:23 left off, "but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:8 declares, "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Jesus Christ died for us! Jesus' death paid for the price of our sins. Jesus' resurrection proves that God accepted Jesus' death as the payment for our sins.

The fourth stop on the Romans Road to salvation is Romans 10:9, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Because of Jesus' death on our behalf, all we have to do is believe in Him, trusting His death as the payment for our sins - and we will be saved! Romans 10:13 says it again, "for everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sins and rescue us from eternal death. Salvation, the forgiveness of sins, is available to anyone who will trust in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

The final aspect of the Romans Road to salvation is the results of salvation. Romans 5:1 has this wonderful message, "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Through Jesus Christ we can have a relationship of peace with God. Romans 8:1 teaches us, "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." Because of Jesus' death on our behalf, we will never be condemned for our sins. Finally, we have this precious promise of God from Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Of course, with all this distracted talk about latter day "franchise builders" and all of the antagonistic sentiment against the NT, the first issue is simply one of faith.

In response to the questions of "How do you know its...." the answer is always "By Faith".

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by ringo, posted 06-22-2015 12:11 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by ringo, posted 08-07-2015 11:55 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19614
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 272 of 451 (765879)
08-07-2015 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by Phat
08-06-2015 4:49 PM


Re: God preferences
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

I'd be impressed if God was communing with you and telling you his prophet was Mohammed.


Whats so unimpressive about Jesus?

You miss my point. I'm saying I'd be impressed if the message that God was whispering in your ear was different from the one that's been pelting you from every direction since you were born.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Phat, posted 08-06-2015 4:49 PM Phat has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19614
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 273 of 451 (765880)
08-07-2015 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Phat
08-06-2015 8:21 PM


Re: So yet another definition tossed out for consideration
Phat writes:

... all of the antagonistic sentiment against the NT....


I've said it before and I'll say it again: I respect the New Testament more than you do. That's why I look for the gospel in the gospels instead of in Paul's commentary on the gospels.

Phat writes:

In response to the questions of "How do you know its...." the answer is always "By Faith".


You can't know by faith. You can only believe by faith. If you don't know something, just admit it. Don't try to equate knowledge with belief.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Phat, posted 08-06-2015 8:21 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by Phat, posted 08-18-2015 12:43 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15993
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 274 of 451 (766417)
08-18-2015 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by ringo
08-07-2015 11:55 AM


Its Not What You Do. Its Who He Is
ringo writes:

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I respect the New Testament more than you do. That's why I look for the gospel in the gospels instead of in Paul's commentary on the gospels.

Paul's words are as inspired as Jesus words.

One way to get an idea of what Christianity is is to go back in time and take examples from some respected Theologians of the past.

One of the best was a man named Oswald Chambers.

Chambers had a strong belief well founded on scripture.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by ringo, posted 08-07-2015 11:55 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by ringo, posted 08-18-2015 12:07 PM Phat has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 225 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(2)
Message 275 of 451 (766434)
08-18-2015 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by ringo
06-22-2015 12:11 PM


Re: So yet another definition tossed out for consideration
Hi Ringo,

Ringo writes:


I seem to recall iano saying that the best place to learn "the gospel" is in Romans.

The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and the best place to read about the gospel is the 4 gospels.

Romans was written by Luke and is the message of Paul.

The best explanation of how to receive eternal life is found in the third chapter of John.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by ringo, posted 06-22-2015 12:11 PM ringo has seen this message

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19614
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(3)
Message 276 of 451 (766436)
08-18-2015 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Phat
08-18-2015 12:43 AM


Re: Its Not What You Do. Its Who He Is
Phat writes:

Paul's words are as inspired as Jesus words.


Sez you. How are you measuring inspiration?

Phat writes:

One way to get an idea of what Christianity is is to go back in time and take examples from some respected Theologians of the past.

One of the best was a man named Oswald Chambers.


Maybe you should take your own advice and take more than one example.

But none of what you said addresses what I posted and you quoted: The gospel is in the gospels, purportedly in the words of Jesus Himself - who according to YOUR theology is God Himself, who ought to know what He's talking about. Paul wrote commentaries on the gospel; he was not God, so his words automatically have less value; they're second-hand. Oswald Chambers, et al., wrote commentaries on commentaries; their words are third hand.

It never fails to amuse me how you believers are so eager to throw out what Jesus said.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Phat, posted 08-18-2015 12:43 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Phat, posted 08-25-2015 12:30 AM ringo has replied
 Message 279 by Phat, posted 08-26-2015 1:14 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15993
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 277 of 451 (766992)
08-25-2015 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by ringo
08-18-2015 12:07 PM


Re: Its Not What You Do. Its Who He Is
Ringo writes:

The gospel is in the gospels, purportedly in the words of Jesus Himself - who according to YOUR theology is God Himself, who ought to know what He's talking about.

And who were His audience? Whom was He sent for?

Matt 15:21-28 writes:


Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon.

22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."

23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."

24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

25 The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.

26 He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

27 "Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."

28 Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

The Spirit of God is timeless...eternal. And yet Jesus functioned as a human in time, during certain times, events, and people. He knew--at this point in time---that he was sent specifically to the lost sheep of Israel. We can speculate what the message would have been had Jesus spoken to the gentiles...as paul did. Only those with great faith...an ear to hear, as it were...would receive the message.

The Fishermen whom Jesus chose...as well as the people of Israel...had no clue the purpose nor meaning of Jesus Christ for the whole world.

Matt. 16:21,22 writes:

"From that time forth began Jesus to show unto His disciples, how that He must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.


The message never really changed. It was expanded upon as people began to get an idea of The BIG Picture.[/qs]
ringo writes:

It never fails to amuse me how you believers are so eager to throw out what Jesus said.

I'm not throwing anything out. Im simply pointing out that Paul's purpose and ministry were not at odds with Jesus. The message is the same today, but with progressive revelation. We no longer stone adulterers and homosexuals,for example. We recognize the human propensity to demand rights and avoid responsibilities. There is a right way and a wrong way to do good works. It is always by faith. Granted actions speak louder than words and works are evidence of faith. My point is that doing good works is not a matter of boosted self awareness or esteem. It is awareness of who He is....working through us.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by ringo, posted 08-18-2015 12:07 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by ringo, posted 08-25-2015 12:48 PM Phat has seen this message

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19614
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 278 of 451 (767036)
08-25-2015 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Phat
08-25-2015 12:30 AM


Re: Its Not What You Do. Its Who He Is
Phat writes:

And who were His audience? Whom was He sent for?


Everybody. You think He's talking to you, don't you?

Phat writes:

We can speculate what the message would have been had Jesus spoken to the gentiles...as paul did. Only those with great faith...an ear to hear, as it were...would receive the message.


Why on earth would we speculate that? I can just as easily speculate that Jesus would have given the same message to the Gentiles that He gave to the Jews. Why wouldn't He?

Phat writes:

The message is the same today, but with progressive revelation. We no longer stone adulterers and homosexuals,for example.


And yet it's the fundamentalists who agree with you about "the message" who DO still want to stone homosexuals today - if not with real stones, then by refusing to bake wedding cakes.

Phat writes:

There is a right way and a wrong way to do good works. It is always by faith. Granted actions speak louder than words and works are evidence of faith.


So the people who DO the good works are the ones who HAVE faith, not the ones who merely profess faith. It has nothing to do with "awareness of who He is" or "working through us". It's about what you DO.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Phat, posted 08-25-2015 12:30 AM Phat has seen this message

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15993
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 279 of 451 (767093)
08-26-2015 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by ringo
08-18-2015 12:07 PM


Re: Its Not What You Do. Its Who He Is
ringo writes:

Paul wrote commentaries on the gospel; he was not God, so his words automatically have less value; they're second-hand. Oswald Chambers, et al., wrote commentaries on commentaries; their words are third hand.

And yet didnt you once say that the message is more important than the messenger? IF what you say can be considered as possibly true, Jesus, Paul, and Oswald Chambers all ought to be judged by their words. Paul never contradicted Jesus, by the way.

Something had to knock old Saul off his high horse...and that "something" was the same Spirit that Jesus has.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by ringo, posted 08-18-2015 12:07 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by ringo, posted 08-26-2015 11:53 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19614
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 280 of 451 (767137)
08-26-2015 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by Phat
08-26-2015 1:14 AM


Re: Its Not What You Do. Its Who He Is
Phat writes:

And yet didnt you once say that the message is more important than the messenger? IF what you say can be considered as possibly true, Jesus, Paul, and Oswald Chambers all ought to be judged by their words. Paul never contradicted Jesus, by the way.


It doesn't have to be a flat-out contradiction. Any change in focus is a change in the message and Paul certainly changed the focus. If you want "the real message", why are you so opposed to going to the original instead of Paul's paraphrase?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Phat, posted 08-26-2015 1:14 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Straightshot, posted 08-30-2015 9:04 AM ringo has replied
 Message 297 by Phat, posted 12-30-2015 8:46 AM ringo has replied

  
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 2082 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 281 of 451 (767507)
08-30-2015 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by ringo
08-26-2015 11:53 AM


Re: Its Not What You Do. Its Who He Is
The man who understands this knows the truth

2 Timothy
3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.

3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,

3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.

3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

The man who doubts knows little


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by ringo, posted 08-26-2015 11:53 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by ringo, posted 08-30-2015 2:37 PM Straightshot has replied

  
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 2082 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 282 of 451 (767509)
08-30-2015 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by jar
06-24-2015 10:29 AM


Re: still trying to define what Christianity is.
This is Christianity put forth in the scriptures below .... believe it, or not

Most humans reject .... even the majority of those who profess .... they are "religious" pretenders [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:15-19]

2 Timothy
3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

This is Christianity as stated in the following scriptures:

John
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by jar, posted 06-24-2015 10:29 AM jar has taken no action

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 8549
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


(2)
Message 283 of 451 (767535)
08-30-2015 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Straightshot
08-30-2015 9:18 AM


Re: still trying to define what Christianity is.
Hey Straightshot, you appear to be simply preaching - and in several forii.

Quoting great chunks of biblical bollox does not represent an argument and doesn't get read. Please pack it in. It only impresses the choir and then only by its tedium.

If you want to preach, go to church. If you want to discuss, keep your quotes short and relevant to the argument. It would be great if you could bring more here than just the bible, we've all got one.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Straightshot, posted 08-30-2015 9:18 AM Straightshot has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19614
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 284 of 451 (767546)
08-30-2015 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Straightshot
08-30-2015 9:04 AM


Re: Its Not What You Do. Its Who He Is
Straightshot writes:

The man who doubts knows little


quote:
1Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Actually, the man who swallows hooks, lines and sinkers without testing them knows little.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Straightshot, posted 08-30-2015 9:04 AM Straightshot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Straightshot, posted 08-30-2015 3:29 PM ringo has replied

  
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 2082 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 285 of 451 (767556)
08-30-2015 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by ringo
08-30-2015 2:37 PM


Re: Its Not What You Do. Its Who He Is
"Quoting great chunks of biblical bollox does not represent an argument and doesn't get read. Please pack it in"

Hey tangel .... I don't argue, but many read what I say ..... even you

Packing it into your brain would be fitting ..... but then .... people do what people do

You should try a little "bollox".... who knows, maybe you will catch on?

I suppose it depends upon how far gone one really is ..... the door is still open as we speak .... but could be shut before this day is over


This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by ringo, posted 08-30-2015 2:37 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by ringo, posted 08-30-2015 3:36 PM Straightshot has taken no action
 Message 287 by Straightshot, posted 08-30-2015 3:42 PM Straightshot has replied

  
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