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Author Topic:   Religions are fairy tales for adults. Should we encourage them to grow up?
Faith
Member
Posts: 33371
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 286 of 424 (767683)
08-31-2015 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Greatest I am
08-31-2015 4:04 PM


Re: Clerk refuses to issue marriage license to gays
Right in line with the degeneration of the culture, you confuse murder of innocents with justice, good for evil and evil for good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Greatest I am, posted 08-31-2015 4:04 PM Greatest I am has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 33371
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 287 of 424 (767685)
08-31-2015 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by Tangle
08-31-2015 4:08 PM


Re: NRe: HRe: Clerk refuses to issue marriage license to gays
You are right, that witch trials and thumb screws have nothing to do with Christianity, they are aberrations mostly invented by Catholicism.

On the other hand, the theology of the death penalty for murder is completely just, and should be applied to those who used thumb screws and murdered dissidents of all kinds, especially Bible believing dissidents..


This message is a reply to:
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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1258 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(1)
Message 288 of 424 (767693)
08-31-2015 9:58 PM


SCOTUS declines to extend clerk's stay
According to her lawyers, Kim Davis will pray tonight for guidance from God, then show up for work tomorrow knowing what to do.

I hope God tells her (again) to render under Caesar's what is Caesar's--the peddling of civil licenses--but one never knows.

In any event, she will not be required to add a gay marriage to her resume, nor will she be required to aver her approval of gay marriage. She doesn't have to participate in the gay wedding, or even send regrets. She just has to fill out the form and hand it over, just like she would for adulterers, fornicators and Hindus.

I think the media attention and her movement lawyers--who have already advised her previously to defy a federal court order, risking contempt charges--increase the odds that she will choose dramatic martyrdom.

Probably the anti-gay attorneys reckon (rightly, I think) that the sight of a white southern lady being jailed for defying gay marriage would serve their purposes as well as a stay. Unfortunately, the debate was framed for her, and she clearly believes that doing her paperwork job according to the law contaminates her with gayness--that's the movement cant. Wrecking her work life in an empty gesture of defiance (and contempt charges)--that's her movement lawyers.

Maybe she'll do the right thing. Her job. Maybe the Right side of the web will send her riches. At the moment, I pity her.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 33371
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 289 of 424 (767695)
08-31-2015 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by Omnivorous
08-31-2015 9:58 PM


Re: SCOTUS declines to extend clerk's stay
It's definitely a painful choice: an $80-thousand a year job or obedience to God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Omnivorous, posted 08-31-2015 9:58 PM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by Omnivorous, posted 08-31-2015 10:09 PM Faith has responded
 Message 293 by Bliyaal, posted 09-01-2015 8:01 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1258 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(1)
Message 290 of 424 (767696)
08-31-2015 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Faith
08-31-2015 10:06 PM


Re: SCOTUS declines to extend clerk's stay
No, an $80,000 a year job or mindless bigotry.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Faith, posted 08-31-2015 10:06 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Faith, posted 08-31-2015 10:54 PM Omnivorous has responded

    
Coyote
Member (Idle past 397 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 291 of 424 (767697)
08-31-2015 10:43 PM


Save us...
Save us, dear Lord, from those who would save us.

Art Hoppe, On the Death of Robert Kennedy
San Francisco Chronicle, 1968

The above column is also published in this book:

http://www.amazon.com/...xon-My-Other-Problems/dp/8770107114


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33371
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 292 of 424 (767698)
08-31-2015 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by Omnivorous
08-31-2015 10:09 PM


Re: SCOTUS declines to extend clerk's stay
It's hard to get across how there is no personal bigotry or hatred of gays involved in this, though you persist in construing it that way. I'm sure there's nothing I could say to change your view of it, but I did run across an interesting post on loving the sinner on Cripplegate a well-known Christian blog.

First the writer discusses the out-and-out unchristian hatred of gays expressed by Westboro Baptist Church, then turns to an interesting example of an attempt to show love even while refusing to give in to the sin, which might at least help to soften the tone of this until we hear what Kim Davis decides to do.

Remember the Kleins? The Oregon bakers who were fined for refusing to make a wedding cake for a lesbian couple? They consulted with evangelist Ray Comfort who advised them to send a cake to a list of gay rights organizations, which they did, and it looked like this:

So what does it look like to love the sinner and hate the sin? How could Westboro Baptist show love for homosexuals without condoning the sin of homosexuality? Ask Ray Comfort. That’s what the Kleins did.

Melissa and Aaron Klein, bakers from Oregon, declined to make a wedding cake for a lesbian couple. And they were successfully sued for discrimination. The case is being appealed, but in the meantime the Kleins approached famed evangelist Ray Comfort who has shed a beam of solace on the situation. At his suggestion the couple baked and sent cakes to ten gay rights organizations. They included a gift certificate, a gospel message, and decorated the cakes with the words “We really do love you.”

No one could misconstrue the Klein’s gesture as approving of homosexuality. And yet no one can dispute that the Kleins are doing a better job at showing love to homosexual people than Westboro is.

Cheered me up anyway. I hope Kim Davis has the courage to give up her job for obedience to God. It would also be nice if she could come up with some sort of gesture similar to the Kleins'.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 659 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


(1)
Message 293 of 424 (767708)
09-01-2015 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by Faith
08-31-2015 10:06 PM


Re: SCOTUS declines to extend clerk's stay
It's definitely a painful choice: an $80-thousand a year job or obedience to God.

Is this how much you value your version of god? 80,000$/year? What is the price for your eternal soul? I might be interested.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Faith, posted 08-31-2015 10:06 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 671 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 294 of 424 (767709)
09-01-2015 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 292 by Faith
08-31-2015 10:54 PM


Re: SCOTUS declines to extend clerk's stay
Faith

"It's hard to get across how there is no personal bigotry or hatred of gays involved in this,"

Jesus.
You will know my people by their works and deeds.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Faith, posted 08-31-2015 10:54 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1258 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 295 of 424 (767718)
09-01-2015 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 292 by Faith
08-31-2015 10:54 PM


Re: SCOTUS declines to extend clerk's stay
It seems she wants her job and her bigotry, too--Ms. Davis refused to issue marriage licenses to gay couples this morning.

She has exhausted her immediate avenues of appeal.

Perhaps the next news will be the size of the contempt of court fine she must pay daily for her failure to do her job. I hope so. A jail cell should soon follow.

Here's the oath she took upon taking office:

quote:
"I, ....., do swear that I will well and truly discharge the duties of the office of .............. County Circuit Court clerk, according to the best of my skill and judgment, making the due entries and records of all orders, judgments, decrees, opinions and proceedings of the court, and carefully filing and preserving in my office all books and papers which come to my possession by virtue of my office; and that I will not knowingly or willingly commit any malfeasance of office, and will faithfully execute the duties of my office without favor, affection or partiality, so help me God."

She now refuses to keep her oath, citing the authority of God. I wonder which God witnessed her oath and which one she's citing now.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Faith, posted 08-31-2015 10:54 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-01-2015 10:40 AM Omnivorous has responded
 Message 301 by Faith, posted 09-01-2015 11:31 AM Omnivorous has acknowledged this reply

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13052
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 296 of 424 (767720)
09-01-2015 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 295 by Omnivorous
09-01-2015 10:30 AM


Re: SCOTUS declines to extend clerk's stay
She now refuses to keep her oath, citing the authority of God. I wonder which God witnessed her oath and which one she's citing now.
In my mind, she is simply obeying her God. She is exercising judgement as she sees it. Her excuse is that she is backed by God. It is honest, in her mind.

As to which "God" witnessed her oath....seems to me that secular humanists are defining which ":God" helps the state.

Personally, were i the clerk i would issue the licenses. So help me, God. God helps me over the authority of any state...any day.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Omnivorous, posted 09-01-2015 10:30 AM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by Omnivorous, posted 09-01-2015 10:59 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13052
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 297 of 424 (767721)
09-01-2015 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 293 by Bliyaal
09-01-2015 8:01 AM


Re: SCOTUS declines to extend clerk's stay
Is this how much you value your version of god? 80,000$/year? What is the price for your eternal soul? I might be interested.

The issue is to do as you believe God wants you to do. Do we give up our allegiance to the global system? Could we? If the answer is no, compromise is inevitable.

I dont agree that gay marriage is of the highest spiritual ethic, but then neither do i think that the majority of straight relationships are of the highest order either. The issue is simply a legal one...morality left the arena years ago.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Bliyaal, posted 09-01-2015 8:01 AM Bliyaal has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by Omnivorous, posted 09-01-2015 11:03 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1258 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(2)
Message 298 of 424 (767722)
09-01-2015 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 296 by Thugpreacha
09-01-2015 10:40 AM


Re: SCOTUS declines to extend clerk's stay
Phat writes:

As to which "God" witnessed her oath....seems to me that secular humanists are defining which ":God" helps the state.

That doesn't make any sense.

I don't want God in our secular oaths, but Christians put and keep God in those texts. I suspect his discomfort.

She took an oath of office, an oath clearly in conflict with her present behavior. The 'so help me God' is irrelevant except for the richness of its irony.

She believes what she says? No doubt. So do members of ISIS.

That doesn't mean she gets to institute Christian Sharia law in her county.

She could have earned some respect from me by resigning: "The oath I took before God, and my beliefs about God and marriage, are in conflict. I cannot in good conscience continue as county clerk."

Her present course draws from me what it deserves from the court: contempt.

She wants her 15 minutes of martyrdom, and she deserves it.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-01-2015 10:40 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

    
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1258 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 299 of 424 (767723)
09-01-2015 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by Thugpreacha
09-01-2015 10:44 AM


Re: SCOTUS declines to extend clerk's stay
Phat writes:

I dont agree that gay marriage is of the highest spiritual ethic, but then neither do i think that the majority of straight relationships are of the highest order either. The issue is simply a legal one...morality left the arena years ago.

Morality never leaves the arena. She is not only illegal, she is wrong. No one has the right to deny someone what the law has granted them, especially not an agent and servant of law. The attempt is immoral.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-01-2015 10:44 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 300 of 424 (767725)
09-01-2015 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by Thugpreacha
09-01-2015 10:44 AM


Re: SCOTUS declines to extend clerk's stay
If my job required me to do something that I thought was unethical, then I would quit my job.

Case closed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-01-2015 10:44 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-01-2015 11:59 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
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