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Author Topic:   Religions are fairy tales for adults. Should we encourage them to grow up?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 301 of 424 (767726)
09-01-2015 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 295 by Omnivorous
09-01-2015 10:30 AM


Re: SCOTUS declines to extend clerk's stay
Interesting. I'm surprised I didn't anticipate her doing this. I have to suppose she will be arrested, that will probably be the next event. I'd like to be surprised on that too of course.
But you are quite wrong in thinking God would require her to keep her oath. In the Book of Acts (4:19, 5:29) the apostles who have been preaching Christ are told by the Jewish authorities to stop doing it, and their answer is that they ought to obey God rather than man. An oath that violates God's law must not be kept, just as the SCOTUS ruling itself must not be obeyed because it violates God's law. God has no problem with this woman's decision. The state may, in which case she'll no doubt be punished, but she is certainly not out of line with respect to God.
Interesting though. I await further developments.
ABE: Getting this into better perspective, perhaps, it needs to be recognized that this was a request for a stay while she makes an appeal, not some kind of final decision.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Omnivorous, posted 09-01-2015 10:30 AM Omnivorous has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-01-2015 1:58 PM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 302 of 424 (767730)
09-01-2015 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Faith
08-31-2015 1:40 PM


Re: HRe: Clerk refuses to issue marriage license to gays
Faith writes:
There's nothing I can do about wrong executions.
Yes there is. You can lobby against the problem instead of for it. You can be part of the solution instead of the problem.
Faith writes:
Mistakes don't invalidate the principle of the death penalty.
Of course they do. If there's a chance of making a mistake you don't do what you can't undo. You don't burn your bridges if you might have to go back.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Faith, posted 08-31-2015 1:40 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by Faith, posted 09-01-2015 12:08 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 303 of 424 (767731)
09-01-2015 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by New Cat's Eye
09-01-2015 11:07 AM


Re: SCOTUS declines to extend clerk's stay
If my job required me to do something that I thought was unethical, then I would quit my job.
I respect that, because it isn't always easy to walk away from provision.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-01-2015 11:07 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-01-2015 1:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 304 of 424 (767733)
09-01-2015 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Faith
08-31-2015 3:55 PM


Re: NRe: HRe: Clerk refuses to issue marriage license to gays
Faith writes:
Oh how you revisionists love criminals.
Jesus was the revisionist:
quote:
Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
No doubt there are people on death row praying for you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Faith, posted 08-31-2015 3:55 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by Faith, posted 09-01-2015 12:10 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 305 of 424 (767734)
09-01-2015 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by ringo
09-01-2015 11:53 AM


Re: HRe: Clerk refuses to issue marriage license to gays
I guess I could devote the rest of my life to helping those who are working to set wrongly convicted people free. I applaud their work but I have other things to do with the rest of my life.
However, the point I was making is that the death penalty is the right sentence for some crimes, and that doesn't change because of judicial mistakes in determining who deserves it. These are separate issues. You don't change the law because people misapply it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by ringo, posted 09-01-2015 11:53 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by ringo, posted 09-01-2015 12:19 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 306 of 424 (767735)
09-01-2015 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by ringo
09-01-2015 12:05 PM


Re: NRe: HRe: Clerk refuses to issue marriage license to gays
You again distort Jesus' teaching. He doesn't address anything that has to do with the criminal justice system, He is addressing individuals about how we are to deal with personal injustices against ourselves.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by ringo, posted 09-01-2015 12:05 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by ringo, posted 09-01-2015 12:20 PM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 307 of 424 (767736)
09-01-2015 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by Faith
09-01-2015 12:08 PM


Re: HRe: Clerk refuses to issue marriage license to gays
Faith writes:
I guess I could devote the rest of my life to helping those who are working to set wrongly convicted people free.
The least you could do to follow Jesus' teaching is stop contradicting Him. What you probably SHOULD do, if you were an honest Christian, is speak out as He did:
quote:
Matthew 5:38-39 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
What you SHOULD do is stop mangling the Bible.
Faith writes:
However, the point I was making is that the death penalty is the right sentence for some crimes, and that doesn't change because of judicial mistakes in determining who deserves it.
You made that point just fine but it's patently wrong, both logically and Biblically.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Faith, posted 09-01-2015 12:08 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 308 of 424 (767737)
09-01-2015 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by Faith
09-01-2015 12:10 PM


Re: NRe: HRe: Clerk refuses to issue marriage license to gays
Faith writes:
He doesn't address anything that has to do with the criminal justice system....
Nonsense. An eye for an eye was an integral part of the Hebrew justice system. It had nothing to do with individual behaviour.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Faith, posted 09-01-2015 12:10 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by Faith, posted 09-01-2015 12:32 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 309 of 424 (767738)
09-01-2015 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by ringo
09-01-2015 12:20 PM


Re: NRe: HRe: Clerk refuses to issue marriage license to gays
Actually it did back in tribal times. It was intended to correct the excesses of vigilante justice. In any case it's clear that people continued to use that formula in dealing with their private injuries and that is what Jesus was preaching to. It's clear He's addressing individuals no matter what the context anyway. Jesus had no reason to preach to nations and states, He was collecting individuals to make up His church.
Applying His teaching to the criminal justice system is so beyond absurd you have to just not be thinking. Sheer nonsense, ringo, a huge waste of time.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by ringo, posted 09-01-2015 12:20 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by ringo, posted 09-01-2015 12:45 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 310 of 424 (767740)
09-01-2015 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by Faith
09-01-2015 12:32 PM


Re: NRe: HRe: Clerk refuses to issue marriage license to gays
Faith writes:
It's clear He's addressing individuals no matter what the context anyway.
WHAT? Your suggesting that we should just ignore the context and accept your (per)version?
Faith writes:
Jesus had no reason to preach to nations and states....
I didn't say He was preaching to nations. But as an individual who DOES have some influence over your nation's decisions, you are obligated to extend that teaching to your nation.
Faith writes:
Applying His teaching to the criminal justice system is so beyond absurd you have to just not be thinking.
I'm quoting what Jesus said. You can call that nonsense if you like.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Faith, posted 09-01-2015 12:32 PM Faith has not replied

  
Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2367 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


Message 311 of 424 (767742)
09-01-2015 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Phat
09-01-2015 10:40 AM


Re: SCOTUS declines to extend clerk's stay
In my mind, she is simply obeying her God.
In her post I was replying to, Faith made a clear distinction between obeying god (by resigning or denying the license) and the salary. She also described the choice as painful meaning that she thinks it's hard to choose between a few years of material comfort and an eternity in heaven.
I was only asking what was her price. At what point does it go from easy to difficult to choose?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Phat, posted 09-01-2015 10:40 AM Phat has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 312 of 424 (767744)
09-01-2015 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by Phat
09-01-2015 11:59 AM


Re: SCOTUS declines to extend clerk's stay
If my job required me to do something that I thought was unethical, then I would quit my job.
I respect that, because it isn't always easy to walk away from provision.
And it isn't always hard to do something that you think is unethical.
Especially, when it hurts exactly nobody... and is actually helping some people.
And coupled with the fact that you can just tell your god that you're only performing the duty because you have to for your job, and that you are in no way endorsing something against his laws, then there is absolutely no reason at all for you to try to keep your job and also not perform the duty.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Phat, posted 09-01-2015 11:59 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 313 of 424 (767749)
09-01-2015 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by Faith
09-01-2015 11:31 AM


Re: SCOTUS declines to extend clerk's stay
Interesting. I'm surprised I didn't anticipate her doing this. I have to suppose she will be arrested ...
"Arrested"? Sacked, surely? I'm fairly sure that that's what happens when you refuse to do the job you're paid for.
God has no problem with this woman's decision.
I'm always happy when you give us up-to-date information on what God's thinking. Has there been any change in his position on usury?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Faith, posted 09-01-2015 11:31 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by Faith, posted 09-01-2015 2:13 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 314 of 424 (767751)
09-01-2015 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by Dr Adequate
09-01-2015 1:58 PM


Re: SCOTUS declines to extend clerk's stay
Why isn't there some recognition of the fact that she had the job before the law came down? That's some kind of fraud or entrapment I would think, something that ought to be prosecuted in itself.
I quoted scripture to show that she's in God's favor in making this decision, nothing new about it. It's the decision Christians have made since the beginning, that has brought the wrath of the pagan state against us. We choose God over the worship of Caesar and get eaten by lions. We choose the Bible over the traditions of the RCC and get tortured and massacred by the Inquisition. Tyndale got burnt at the stake for daring to translate the Bible into English against the teachings of the RCC that only priests could read it and only in Latin. Finally it's coming to America, that's all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-01-2015 1:58 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Bliyaal, posted 09-01-2015 2:21 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 316 by Omnivorous, posted 09-01-2015 2:25 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 319 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-02-2015 12:37 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 320 by PaulK, posted 09-02-2015 1:40 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 324 by jar, posted 09-02-2015 10:45 AM Faith has not replied

  
Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2367 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


Message 315 of 424 (767752)
09-01-2015 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by Faith
09-01-2015 2:13 PM


Re: SCOTUS declines to extend clerk's stay
Why isn't there some recognition of the fact that she had the job before the law came down?
Because the law didn't change. The SCOTUS only made clear what the constitution says. Not a letter of it changed. Anyway, her job depends on laws. Laws change and new laws are passed all the time. She knew that before taking the oath. No entrapment or fraud there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Faith, posted 09-01-2015 2:13 PM Faith has not replied

  
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