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Author Topic:   The Greatest Threat to Civilization
Percy
Member
Posts: 22393
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(3)
Message 1 of 13 (767817)
09-02-2015 12:27 PM


I'm talking, of course, about computers. I'm creating this topic while waiting on hold for a Liberty Mutual representative to answer the phone. This is the umpety-umph time I have called Liberty Mutual trying to understand and correct the information for an insurance policy on a rental property my mother owns. I don't want to bore people with needless details, so hopefully this list is undetailed enough to be endured but long enough to give the correct impression of how difficult it can be to deal with business or government in today's computer driven labyrinth. Remember, this is all just trying to update the insurance with Liberty Mutual for a single property. It doesn't need to actually be read, just seen in its whole to grasp the massive awfulness.
  1. Check online at Liberty Mutual to see the insurance policies and note what changes have to be made.
  2. Call Liberty Mutual to find out what documents they need to make the changes.
  3. Email PDF's of documents to Liberty Mutual.
  4. Check online to see if the updates have been made, but discover that now no policies are listed online.
  5. Call Liberty Mutual, they restore the policies to being viewable online.
  6. Although the policies are now listed, I cannot see any information about them.
  7. Call Liberty Mutual, they inform me that there's a known bug that if flood policies are made viewable that then the website is no longer able to provide detailed information about any of the policies, or even to let you update your profile. They suggest removing the flood policy from the viewable list to fix the problem.
  8. This *does* fix the problem, but now I discover that while they have updated most of the information correctly, they changed the insured property address to be the post office box for Bank of America in Fort Worth, Texas. This needs to be emphasized: According to the online information, I am now insuring a post office box in Fort Worth, Texas.
  9. Attempt to correct the information online, but this isn't permitted.
  10. Call Liberty Mutual to correct the error, am informed that they do have the correct address at their end, it must just be the online database that is incorrect. They suggest I check the website in a couple days and see if the information corrects itself.
  11. Check back in a couple days, the information is still incorrect, so I call Liberty Mutual again. They say they'll notify the IT group.
  12. But even though it is no longer in the list of policies presented online, I now know that there's a flood insurance policy, something I didn't know before. I ask about the flood insurance policy and am informed that they're only a processor for flood policies granted by FEMA. They tell me to call FEMA.
  13. I check the FEMA website, eventually learn that what I really want is the FEMA administered National Flood Insurance Program (NPID), but I have no login for that website. I call the number for NPID.
  14. I'm told that Liberty Mutual gave me incorrect information and that I should not call NPID but a different number at Liberty Mutual. They give me the number.
  15. I call that number at Liberty Mutual and am told that this is an underwriting department, and that what I really need is a different number at Liberty Mutual.
  16. I call that number and actually talk to someone who knows about flood insurance. He says I will have to send him all the same documents that I already sent to a different department at Liberty Mutual last week. The different departments don't really talk to each other.
Why do we have this mess? It's certainly not Liberty Mutual's fault. I'm encountering essentially the same issues at Bank of America, Wells Fargo, Merrill Edge, United Healthcare, Dartmouth-Hitchcock and AARP. I think the problem is endemic and affects all businesses and all departments of government, and I blame computers. If people had to manage this interconnected mess of data we would never have created these complex data dependencies and relationships, but computers *can* manage them, so we create them. The only problem is, people still have to interact with this data, and people still have to explain to other people what is going on.
Maybe this is what T. S. Eliot meant when he wrote, "This is the way the world ends, not with a bang but a whimper."
--Percy

Replies to this message:
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 Message 5 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-02-2015 3:31 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
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caffeine
Member (Idle past 1025 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


(1)
Message 2 of 13 (767824)
09-02-2015 1:35 PM


Why do we have this mess? It's certainly not Liberty Mutual's fault. I'm encountering essentially the same issues at Bank of America, Wells Fargo, Merrill Edge, United Healthcare, Dartmouth-Hitchcock and AARP. I think the problem is endemic and affects all businesses and all departments of government, and I blame computers.
I think you're almost certainly wrong. I remember having to queue to speak to someone at a bank, having to make appointments, sitting and waiting for someone to come available and still having trouble finding the information I want.
A couple of years ago I switched to a bank which does almost everything online, with almost no physical infrastructure. Since joining them, I haven't needed to speak to anyone. Any transaction I need to arrange, any change to policies, I do at home from the comfort of my sofa. I can find out exactly what services are and are not available and read the legal small print if I have a will to, as all of it's online.
The problem is not computers, the problem is people using them well. Your inability to find what you need online is no different to spending your entire lunch break queuing to speak to someone at a window who tells you that you need to go and join a different queue to get that information - poor use of the rresources available.

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 3 of 13 (767825)
09-02-2015 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
09-02-2015 12:27 PM


Well at least you've found a legitimate use for a handgun.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
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Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 4 of 13 (767836)
09-02-2015 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
09-02-2015 12:27 PM


Yeah, I'm with caffeine.
Percy writes:
Why do we have this mess?
Doesn't sound to me like you're running into a problem with computers at all.
It sounds to me like you're running into a problem with stupid people.
It's probably variations of things like:
-actually stupid people
-lazy people
-people scared of editing "the data" and getting fired
-people not trained properly in their jobs (not stupid employees, but stupid managers...)
It's certainly not Liberty Mutual's fault.
In reading through your checklist, I think it's entirely Mutual's faut. It's their system. If they can't control it or keep it straight... that's their fault.
I'm encountering essentially the same issues at Bank of America, Wells Fargo, Merrill Edge, United Healthcare, Dartmouth-Hitchcock and AARP.
Sounds about right to me.
On average... it's rather difficult to find a group of 6 people without at least one of them being fairly stupid.
How large are these companies? Hundreds of people? Thousands of people? All trying to work together and one-up each other?
Sounds like a lot of room for stupidity.
I think the problem is endemic and affects all businesses and all departments of government, and I blame computers.
I think the problem is endemic to large groups of people coupled with poor focus of management, and I blame stupid people.
If people had to manage this interconnected mess of data we would never have created these complex data dependencies and relationships, but computers *can* manage them, so we create them. The only problem is, people still have to interact with this data, and people still have to explain to other people what is going on.
In a nutshell, the problem is more "the guy who thought up the software is unable to understand how someone will react to features if they did not think understand the entire system in the first place." (Granted, it's a difficult problem)
Add on restraints in time and money (limited resources for debugging) and some guy trying to show off that he's responsible for bringing the company into the new-age and you get... lots and lots of stupid.
T.S. Elliot writes:
"This is the way the world ends, not with a bang but a whimper."
I don't think it's the end of the world. I think it's just how people are and how we function.
I think it's always been like this.
When I was young, I always thought that at some point, somewhere... maybe important stuff like banks and mortgages... there would be a serious system that worked right with good people double-checking things and making sure it's right.
But, nope.
Or, at least, I haven't ran into any system that doesn't have *some* stupid people included in running it.
Obviously you've been patient and tried to work within the system.
Your choices are either to continue, or to take it up a hole, which, unfortunately, would be something like suing them or getting a lawyer involved or something like that. Sucks, but that's pretty much all we got.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 09-02-2015 12:27 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 5 of 13 (767838)
09-02-2015 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
09-02-2015 12:27 PM


We may be doomed
My wife and I have been dealing with a similar issue for months now.
The medical supply outfit I got a new CPAP from have continued to bill my insurance every month for 7 months after it was paid for. I have contacted multiple different people at both the insurance company and medical supply company about this but it continues and they all give me the run around and say they will call us back.
They also say I owe for a co-pay, but every bill and contact give us a different amount that I owe, all the way from $328 to $88. The lowest was the last, but I am not sure we owe anything.
This sure does not inspire me with the conclusion that private corporations can do a better job than government, and certainly not cheaper.
Good luck and thanks for ensuring that PO box......

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 6 of 13 (767839)
09-02-2015 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by caffeine
09-02-2015 1:35 PM


poor use of the resources available.
Quite right. Percy is the resource.
Just hack the damn thing and change it.

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marc9000
Member
Posts: 1509
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 7 of 13 (767859)
09-02-2015 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
09-02-2015 12:27 PM


I think there'll be a lot of changes and refinements in how PC's are used in the coming years/decades. Some will be better, some worse, always in the eye of the beholder.
In 1995, few people had PC's. Today 20 years later, they're pretty common. In 1905, few people had cars. By 1925, pretty common. I just read a book about how the American gas stations alone have evolved from 1905 to today, and there were a lot of changes from 1905 to 1925, and tons more from 1925 to today.
Who can predict how PC use will change in the coming years.

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 Message 1 by Percy, posted 09-02-2015 12:27 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 8 of 13 (767879)
09-02-2015 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
09-02-2015 12:27 PM


I agree with others -- it isn't the computer.
I'm inclined to blame it on the excesses of capitalism.
Once upon a time, a service business cared about giving good service. But now they only care about the bottom line.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 9 of 13 (767918)
09-03-2015 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Stile
09-02-2015 3:08 PM


Stile writes:
-actually stupid people
-lazy people
-people scared of editing "the data" and getting fired
-people not trained properly in their jobs (not stupid employees, but stupid managers...)
I got a letter from a law firm trying to collect $34 for a magazine subscription that I had never agreed to. I asked them what kind of idiot hires a lawyer to collect $34. I told them to fuck off and leave me alone. They did.
Edited by ringo, : Removed redundant "dollars".

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by caffeine, posted 09-03-2015 2:29 PM ringo has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1025 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 10 of 13 (767924)
09-03-2015 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by ringo
09-03-2015 1:03 PM


I got a letter from a law firm trying to collect $34 for a magazine subscription that I had never agreed to. I asked them what kind of idiot hires a lawyer to collect $34. I told them to fuck off and leave me alone. They did.
No-one hires a lawyer to collect $34. They may, however, have taken a leaf out of the book of British loanshark firm Wonga, who realised that it was much more economical to scare people with threatening letters written by fake lawyers they invented than to pay the absurd fees actual lawyers no doubt charge to scare people with threatening letters.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by ringo, posted 09-03-2015 1:03 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 11 of 13 (768002)
09-04-2015 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by caffeine
09-03-2015 2:29 PM


caffeine writes:
... it was much more economical to scare people with threatening letters written by fake lawyers they invented than to pay the absurd fees actual lawyers no doubt charge to scare people with threatening letters.
It's true that I wouldn't even have opened the letter if it hadn't had the return address of a "law firm". But I was gleefully thinking of the legal bill they were going to run up trying to collect.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22393
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 12 of 13 (768067)
09-05-2015 3:07 PM


Sorry for taking so long to respond to this thread. Thanks, everyone, for the thoughtful responses. I expected there would be more concurrence with my views. As the old saying goes, "To err is human, to really foul things up requires a computer." To me it appears that the human tendency toward complexity has only been amplified by computers, with the result that we're building increasingly complex kluge towers climbing toward eventual collapse. I see no sign of restraint. I only hear complaints from all sides, from doctors, receptionists, store clerks, help line personnel, and even programmers, that the computer programs and processes we're putting in place to supposedly help us are actually making our jobs more difficult.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 13 of 13 (768068)
09-05-2015 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Percy
09-05-2015 3:07 PM


that the computer programs and processes we're putting in place to supposedly help us are actually making our jobs more difficult.
Yeah, but at the same time, what fun. Back when we were sending men to the moon, I never dreamed that someday I would have more computing power sitting on my desk than existed in the whole country.
Plus, for a couple bucks I can buy a laser to carry around in my pocket. You gotta admit that's pretty cool.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Percy, posted 09-05-2015 3:07 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
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