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Author | Topic: The Greatest Threat to Civilization | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22393 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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I'm talking, of course, about computers. I'm creating this topic while waiting on hold for a Liberty Mutual representative to answer the phone. This is the umpety-umph time I have called Liberty Mutual trying to understand and correct the information for an insurance policy on a rental property my mother owns. I don't want to bore people with needless details, so hopefully this list is undetailed enough to be endured but long enough to give the correct impression of how difficult it can be to deal with business or government in today's computer driven labyrinth. Remember, this is all just trying to update the insurance with Liberty Mutual for a single property. It doesn't need to actually be read, just seen in its whole to grasp the massive awfulness.
Why do we have this mess? It's certainly not Liberty Mutual's fault. I'm encountering essentially the same issues at Bank of America, Wells Fargo, Merrill Edge, United Healthcare, Dartmouth-Hitchcock and AARP. I think the problem is endemic and affects all businesses and all departments of government, and I blame computers. If people had to manage this interconnected mess of data we would never have created these complex data dependencies and relationships, but computers *can* manage them, so we create them. The only problem is, people still have to interact with this data, and people still have to explain to other people what is going on. Maybe this is what T. S. Eliot meant when he wrote, "This is the way the world ends, not with a bang but a whimper." --Percy
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1025 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined:
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Why do we have this mess? It's certainly not Liberty Mutual's fault. I'm encountering essentially the same issues at Bank of America, Wells Fargo, Merrill Edge, United Healthcare, Dartmouth-Hitchcock and AARP. I think the problem is endemic and affects all businesses and all departments of government, and I blame computers. I think you're almost certainly wrong. I remember having to queue to speak to someone at a bank, having to make appointments, sitting and waiting for someone to come available and still having trouble finding the information I want. A couple of years ago I switched to a bank which does almost everything online, with almost no physical infrastructure. Since joining them, I haven't needed to speak to anyone. Any transaction I need to arrange, any change to policies, I do at home from the comfort of my sofa. I can find out exactly what services are and are not available and read the legal small print if I have a will to, as all of it's online. The problem is not computers, the problem is people using them well. Your inability to find what you need online is no different to spending your entire lunch break queuing to speak to someone at a window who tells you that you need to go and join a different queue to get that information - poor use of the rresources available.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Well at least you've found a legitimate use for a handgun.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined:
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Yeah, I'm with caffeine.
Percy writes: Why do we have this mess? Doesn't sound to me like you're running into a problem with computers at all.It sounds to me like you're running into a problem with stupid people. It's probably variations of things like: -actually stupid people-lazy people -people scared of editing "the data" and getting fired -people not trained properly in their jobs (not stupid employees, but stupid managers...) It's certainly not Liberty Mutual's fault. In reading through your checklist, I think it's entirely Mutual's faut. It's their system. If they can't control it or keep it straight... that's their fault.
I'm encountering essentially the same issues at Bank of America, Wells Fargo, Merrill Edge, United Healthcare, Dartmouth-Hitchcock and AARP. Sounds about right to me.On average... it's rather difficult to find a group of 6 people without at least one of them being fairly stupid. How large are these companies? Hundreds of people? Thousands of people? All trying to work together and one-up each other? Sounds like a lot of room for stupidity. I think the problem is endemic and affects all businesses and all departments of government, and I blame computers. I think the problem is endemic to large groups of people coupled with poor focus of management, and I blame stupid people.
If people had to manage this interconnected mess of data we would never have created these complex data dependencies and relationships, but computers *can* manage them, so we create them. The only problem is, people still have to interact with this data, and people still have to explain to other people what is going on. In a nutshell, the problem is more "the guy who thought up the software is unable to understand how someone will react to features if they did not think understand the entire system in the first place." (Granted, it's a difficult problem)Add on restraints in time and money (limited resources for debugging) and some guy trying to show off that he's responsible for bringing the company into the new-age and you get... lots and lots of stupid. T.S. Elliot writes: "This is the way the world ends, not with a bang but a whimper." I don't think it's the end of the world. I think it's just how people are and how we function.I think it's always been like this. When I was young, I always thought that at some point, somewhere... maybe important stuff like banks and mortgages... there would be a serious system that worked right with good people double-checking things and making sure it's right. But, nope. Or, at least, I haven't ran into any system that doesn't have *some* stupid people included in running it. Obviously you've been patient and tried to work within the system.Your choices are either to continue, or to take it up a hole, which, unfortunately, would be something like suing them or getting a lawyer involved or something like that. Sucks, but that's pretty much all we got.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4344 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9 |
My wife and I have been dealing with a similar issue for months now.
The medical supply outfit I got a new CPAP from have continued to bill my insurance every month for 7 months after it was paid for. I have contacted multiple different people at both the insurance company and medical supply company about this but it continues and they all give me the run around and say they will call us back. They also say I owe for a co-pay, but every bill and contact give us a different amount that I owe, all the way from $328 to $88. The lowest was the last, but I am not sure we owe anything. This sure does not inspire me with the conclusion that private corporations can do a better job than government, and certainly not cheaper. Good luck and thanks for ensuring that PO box......What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8513 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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poor use of the resources available. Quite right. Percy is the resource. Just hack the damn thing and change it.
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marc9000 Member Posts: 1509 From: Ky U.S. Joined: Member Rating: 1.4 |
I think there'll be a lot of changes and refinements in how PC's are used in the coming years/decades. Some will be better, some worse, always in the eye of the beholder.
In 1995, few people had PC's. Today 20 years later, they're pretty common. In 1905, few people had cars. By 1925, pretty common. I just read a book about how the American gas stations alone have evolved from 1905 to today, and there were a lot of changes from 1905 to 1925, and tons more from 1925 to today. Who can predict how PC use will change in the coming years.
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nwr Member Posts: 6408 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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I agree with others -- it isn't the computer.
I'm inclined to blame it on the excesses of capitalism. Once upon a time, a service business cared about giving good service. But now they only care about the bottom line.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
I got a letter from a law firm trying to collect $34 for a magazine subscription that I had never agreed to. I asked them what kind of idiot hires a lawyer to collect $34. I told them to fuck off and leave me alone. They did. -actually stupid people-lazy people -people scared of editing "the data" and getting fired -people not trained properly in their jobs (not stupid employees, but stupid managers...) Edited by ringo, : Removed redundant "dollars".
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1025 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
I got a letter from a law firm trying to collect $34 for a magazine subscription that I had never agreed to. I asked them what kind of idiot hires a lawyer to collect $34. I told them to fuck off and leave me alone. They did. No-one hires a lawyer to collect $34. They may, however, have taken a leaf out of the book of British loanshark firm Wonga, who realised that it was much more economical to scare people with threatening letters written by fake lawyers they invented than to pay the absurd fees actual lawyers no doubt charge to scare people with threatening letters.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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caffeine writes:
It's true that I wouldn't even have opened the letter if it hadn't had the return address of a "law firm". But I was gleefully thinking of the legal bill they were going to run up trying to collect.
... it was much more economical to scare people with threatening letters written by fake lawyers they invented than to pay the absurd fees actual lawyers no doubt charge to scare people with threatening letters.
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Percy Member Posts: 22393 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Sorry for taking so long to respond to this thread. Thanks, everyone, for the thoughtful responses. I expected there would be more concurrence with my views. As the old saying goes, "To err is human, to really foul things up requires a computer." To me it appears that the human tendency toward complexity has only been amplified by computers, with the result that we're building increasingly complex kluge towers climbing toward eventual collapse. I see no sign of restraint. I only hear complaints from all sides, from doctors, receptionists, store clerks, help line personnel, and even programmers, that the computer programs and processes we're putting in place to supposedly help us are actually making our jobs more difficult.
--Percy
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4344 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9 |
that the computer programs and processes we're putting in place to supposedly help us are actually making our jobs more difficult. Yeah, but at the same time, what fun. Back when we were sending men to the moon, I never dreamed that someday I would have more computing power sitting on my desk than existed in the whole country. Plus, for a couple bucks I can buy a laser to carry around in my pocket. You gotta admit that's pretty cool.What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
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