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Author Topic:   Catholics are making it up.
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 61 of 507 (768247)
09-10-2015 6:00 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Tangle
09-10-2015 3:58 AM


Re: Blessed are the Magnanimous
Tangle writes:
I'm pointing out that the process of jetisoning beliefs exposes them to the criticism that they have made ALL of it up.
Humans have culturally constructed many things, like currency systems, nations, forms of art and literature, morality, and even scientific inquiry. Religion is just as "made up" as any of these.
quote:
It doesn't seem like religion is just going to go away,
But it is going away - it's in decline across the developed world.
It is? As far as I know, surveys show that more people are identifying as having no religious beliefs. To you, this means that religion is going away?
Magical thinking is so adorable.
they are actually saying that they were wrong about core truths.
Again, I don't think limbo and not-forgiving-abortion-moms qualify as core doctrines of Catholicism or any other religion. It's not like the Pope is saying that God doesn't exist or that Jesus didn't rise from the dead, which are certainly core doctrines.
And this process has been going on for centuries. The doctrine of original sin got shitcanned decades ago. If you're under the impression that all of a sudden, the Catholic Church is cutting loose important parts of its catechism, and that this is a sign that the entire edifice of Catholicism is collapsing, I'd say you haven't been paying attention.
It's my position that the entirety of their - and, as it happens, all - belief systems is a total fabrication.
Next you'll be telling us that money is just pieces of paper. Is nothing real anymore?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Tangle, posted 09-10-2015 3:58 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Faith, posted 09-10-2015 7:45 AM MrHambre has not replied
 Message 63 by Tangle, posted 09-10-2015 8:38 AM MrHambre has not replied
 Message 65 by Omnivorous, posted 09-10-2015 9:20 AM MrHambre has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 62 of 507 (768249)
09-10-2015 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by MrHambre
09-10-2015 6:00 AM


Re: Blessed are the Magnanimous
Humans have culturally constructed many things, like currency systems, nations, forms of art and literature, morality, and even scientific inquiry. Religion is just as "made up" as any of these.
There is only one true religion, one true revelation of God and that is the Bible. Nothing "made up" about it. If I thought any of it was I wouldn't be a believer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by MrHambre, posted 09-10-2015 6:00 AM MrHambre has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 63 of 507 (768251)
09-10-2015 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by MrHambre
09-10-2015 6:00 AM


Re: Blessed are the Magnanimous
MrH writes:
Humans have culturally constructed many things, like currency systems, nations, forms of art and literature, morality, and even scientific inquiry. Religion is just as "made up" as any of these.
I agree. Catholics (and other believers) would not.
As far as I know, surveys show that more people are identifying as having no religious beliefs. To you, this means that religion is going away?
if you wish to split hairs about 'going away' and 'in decline' and other synonyms, count me out.
Again, I don't think limbo and not-forgiving-abortion-moms qualify as core doctrines of Catholicism or any other religion.
Then you would be incorrect.
It's not like the Pope is saying that God doesn't exist or that Jesus didn't rise from the dead, which are certainly core doctrines.
If by that you mean they're common to all versions of Christianity then you're right. But we're not talking about that; the things they are giving up are some of the things that made them Catholic and not any other Christian franchise. What's next? virgin birth? Transubstantiation?
And this process has been going on for centuries.
Yes it has. That's my point. Core beliefs are being abandonned because they don't fit anymore. The concept of limbo was dumped because the Catholic missionaries in Africa were losing out to the evangelicals who told a better story to parents in countries with high infant death rates.
The doctrine of original sin got shitcanned decades ago. If you're under the impression that all of a sudden, the Catholic Church is cutting loose important parts of its catechism, and that this is a sign that the entire edifice of Catholicism is collapsing, I'd say you haven't been paying attention.
And where exactly are you getting this impression from? I have said that Catholics have been dumping daft dogma for years - since at least the enlightenment - it's a pragmatic response to changes in their market. I'm just reporting this weeks ditched dogma that's in the news and remarking on the ongoing disassembly of their belief system.
Neither have I said that the 'entire edifice of Catholicism is collapsing' - you really must stop this straw man building and 'pay attention' to what I'm actually saying.
It's worth pointing out though that here in the UK and particularly Ireland, the recruitment of priests into the faith has virtually ground to a halt. A product of declining belief generally but also the disgust of the child abuse scandels and subsequent cover ups.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by MrHambre, posted 09-10-2015 6:00 AM MrHambre has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 64 of 507 (768253)
09-10-2015 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Faith
09-10-2015 7:45 AM


Re: Blessed are the Magnanimous
Yet the fact remains that there is no such thing as "The Bible" and that all of the various bibles contain false statements, fiction and contradictions.
You can deny that but the actual words written prove that you would be wrong.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 65 of 507 (768254)
09-10-2015 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by MrHambre
09-10-2015 6:00 AM


Re: Blessed are the Magnanimous
MrHambre writes:
The doctrine of original sin got shitcanned decades ago.
I'm following your exchange with Tangle with considerable interest. I try to stay out of interesting one-on-one exchanges (with only partial success, as you can see), but I'm curious about your statement above.
I looked at summaries of contemporary Catholic doctrine and catechism, and while it certainly differs from the Protestant take on original sin, the notion of a fallen human state which gives supernatural evil greater power over humans still seems clear enough.
But I don't generally follow developments in religious doctrine. Was there some explicit doctrinal reinterpretation decades ago?

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by MrHambre, posted 09-10-2015 6:00 AM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
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MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 66 of 507 (768256)
09-10-2015 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Omnivorous
09-10-2015 9:20 AM


Re: Blessed are the Magnanimous
Omnivorous writes:
I don't generally follow developments in religious doctrine. Was there some explicit doctrinal reinterpretation decades ago?
I'm not an expert on doctrine, obviously. It used to be taught that babies who die unbaptized can't be saved, but that hasn't been official doctrine for decades.
You're right, "original sin" in a general sense is still a Catholic belief.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 67 of 507 (768257)
09-10-2015 10:07 AM


Original Sin
Original Sin is a PROTESTANT belief, though no doubt quite different from the Catholic version. Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating of the forbidden tree. That disobedience was the original sin, and its consequence was the fallen nature of humanity which was inherited from them by all of us. God said they would die. That's a principle repeated in scripture, as "the wages of sin is death." It started with the death of the spirit which had been in constant communion with God until their sin, and it progressed and still progresses throughout the human race in every kind of disease and deformity to ultimate death of the body. We are saved from this sin and its consequences by belief in the death of Christ in our place.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by jar, posted 09-10-2015 10:20 AM Faith has replied
 Message 75 by Tangle, posted 09-10-2015 11:34 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 68 of 507 (768258)
09-10-2015 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Faith
09-10-2015 10:07 AM


Re: Original Sin
Except Faith, that is NOT what the Bible says. There is no mention of any death of the spirit or fallen nature in the Genesis 2&3 story and Adam & Eve (or Steve since Eve is just a clone of Adam) do not cease to be in communion with the God character plus death certainly existed before the Garden was even created since it was necessary to create a Tree of Life.
Have you ever actually read the Bible Faith?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 09-10-2015 10:07 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 09-10-2015 10:56 AM jar has replied
 Message 70 by AZPaul3, posted 09-10-2015 11:09 AM jar has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 69 of 507 (768259)
09-10-2015 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by jar
09-10-2015 10:20 AM


Re: Original Sin
Only literal-minded dunderheadedness requires the Bible to state doctrine in so many words. A great deal of doctrine is inferred, but that takes a lot of thought, which is beyond some.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by jar, posted 09-10-2015 10:20 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 83 by jar, posted 09-10-2015 3:25 PM Faith has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 70 of 507 (768262)
09-10-2015 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by jar
09-10-2015 10:20 AM


Re: Original Sin
But you can't just market salvation for sinners by waiting for them to commit sins. Limits your revenue base. Having everyone on the planet defined as a sinner just by virtue of having been born maximizes your revenue opportunities to their fullest extent possible.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 71 of 507 (768263)
09-10-2015 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by AZPaul3
09-10-2015 11:09 AM


Re: Original Sin
There is no revenue in salvation. Except of course bogus Catholic "salvation" which isn't salvation anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by AZPaul3, posted 09-10-2015 11:09 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by AZPaul3, posted 09-10-2015 11:22 AM Faith has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 507 (768264)
09-10-2015 11:15 AM


Catholics and original sin
Original Sin is a PROTESTANT belief, though no doubt quite different from the Catholic version. Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating of the forbidden tree. That disobedience was the original sin, and its consequence was the fallen nature of humanity which was inherited from them by all of us.
The Original Sin - About Catholics
quote:
Catholic Beliefs and Catholic Teachings
Adam’s choice to disobey God and eat from the tree in the middle of the garden, after Eve was tempted by the serpent, demonstrated what is at the essence of all sin: that sin is rooted in man’s preference for himself over God. Instead of choosing God, Adam chose himself by eating of the fruit of the tree so that he could be like God, (Genesis 3:5). Humanity was forever changed through this event, losing its innocence of good and evil, bringing sin into the world.
Original sin is not a committed sin, but rather a contracted sin. Unlike all other sins, which are acts of one’s own personal sin, it is a state of the soul, representing the fallen nature that was handed on to us by Adam who fell into death upon committing the original sin. It represents the fallen state of humanity in which we find ourselves devoid of the original grace and holiness with which humanity was created,

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 73 of 507 (768266)
09-10-2015 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Faith
09-10-2015 11:11 AM


Re: Original Sin
And how do you spell tithe?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Faith, posted 09-10-2015 11:11 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Faith, posted 09-10-2015 11:24 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 74 of 507 (768268)
09-10-2015 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by AZPaul3
09-10-2015 11:22 AM


Re: Original Sin
Excuse me?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by AZPaul3, posted 09-10-2015 11:22 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 75 of 507 (768272)
09-10-2015 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Faith
09-10-2015 10:07 AM


Re: Original Sin
Faith writes:
Original Sin is a PROTESTANT belief
True, but the Catholics had it 1500 years or so before them.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 09-10-2015 10:07 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 09-11-2015 12:45 AM Tangle has not replied

  
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