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Author Topic:   Catholics are making it up.
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 211 of 506 (768941)
09-15-2015 6:23 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Tangle
09-15-2015 5:07 AM


Re: " ...a thousand other laws..."
Q. What is the Third Commandment? ( Remember they renumbered! )
A. The third Commandment is: Remember thour keep holy the Sabbath day.

Interesting. It seems to me that the Sabbath is the subject of the fourth commandment in both Exodus and Deuteronomy. I suppose that must be different in the Catholic Bible.

In any event, the commandment says to work six days and rest on the seventh day. It seems that a rest on a seventh day is what nearly every church does, with the question being whether seventh means an ordinal numbering of the days of the week, or merely any day following six other consecutive days. There is also the question of whether the difference even matters.

The issue of which of the seven days is the rest day obviously does matter to some folks, but is that fact enough to raise the issue to any real importance? Does it really matter on which weekday our calendar begins? Don't we actually consider Saturday and Sunday the weekend regardless of where we place Sunday on a calendar. Can we really trace the calendar accurately back to seven days of creation, anyway? Does not the entire idea that a particular day matters require a literal reading of Genesis, something that only fundamentalists seem to accept anyway?

I understand that there are people who celebrate Christmas on Jan 6th because they believe that the added 10 days to the Gregorian calendar were inappropriate. But that stuff ignores the fact that nobody actually believes Christ was born during December in the first place. The exact day of celebration is a matter of tradition and has no actually religious import. The same is true of the Sabbath.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by ringo, posted 09-15-2015 12:39 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 212 of 506 (768943)
09-15-2015 6:39 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by Tangle
09-15-2015 4:34 AM


Re: " ...a thousand other laws..."
Yes it certainly does. It clarifies the mental cartwheels you people have to perform in order to explain away a very simple difficulty with your current rules.

I would have to agree that the gymnastics involved with Faith's explanation are pretty bizarre. The Jewish Sabbath day is actually sunset Friday till Sunset Saturday. It is not even properly a single day of the week, particularly for people whose primary source of light is artificial and for whom sunset and sunrise don't start and end the day.

In any event, instead of speculating or just assuming that you are right, you might consider looking at the explanations given yourself. Searching why Christians worship up on Sunday will uncover the fact that there are various answers given with no one really sure of the right one.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Tangle, posted 09-15-2015 4:34 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Tangle, posted 09-15-2015 9:40 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 230 by Tangle, posted 09-15-2015 5:00 PM NoNukes has seen this message

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8502
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 213 of 506 (768958)
09-15-2015 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by NoNukes
09-15-2015 6:39 AM


Re: " ...a thousand other laws..."
NoNukes writes:

Searching why Christians worship up on Sunday will uncover the fact that there are various answers given with no one really sure of the right one.

Sure, the 20 minutes or so that I've devoted to this has so far only uncovered that it was changed by the pope and the answer given in the quote above resolved to 'because they could.' It seems to slip happily into the category of 'making stuff up at the moment.'

What's even more interesting though is that those that actually believe this stuff and practice it don't know either - and that is appears to flatly contradict the biblical literalist's own practices.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by NoNukes, posted 09-15-2015 6:39 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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Diomedes
Member (Idle past 89 days)
Posts: 973
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


Message 214 of 506 (768959)
09-15-2015 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Tangle
09-15-2015 9:40 AM


Re: " ...a thousand other laws..."
NoNukes writes:

Searching why Christians worship up on Sunday will uncover the fact that there are various answers given with no one really sure of the right one.

In Greek, Saturday is 'Σάββατο' (pronounced 'Savato'). You can see from the spelling that it shares word roots with the word 'Sabbath'.

I honestly don't recall the rationale for changing the holy day to Sunday. There are various Christian sects that actually celebrate Saturday as the actual Sabbath.

And probably a few pagan sects that are worshiping 'Saturn'. (aka 'Cronus')


This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Tangle, posted 09-15-2015 9:40 AM Tangle has taken no action

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 215 of 506 (768965)
09-15-2015 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Tangle
09-15-2015 9:40 AM


Re: " ...a thousand other laws..."
Sure, the 20 minutes or so that I've devoted to this has so far only uncovered that it was changed by the pope and the answer given in the quote above resolved to 'because they could.' It seems to slip happily into the category of 'making stuff up at the moment.'

The problem with that bit of research is that worship on Sunday predates the purported changing of the date by the Church. Sunday church services actually date from the first and second century after Christ's death.

At best the pope would have established an official policy for the Church by choosing one of the existing practices.

Edited by NoNukes, : change chosing to choosing


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Tangle, posted 09-15-2015 9:40 AM Tangle has taken no action

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 1371 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


(1)
Message 216 of 506 (768968)
09-15-2015 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by Tangle
09-15-2015 4:34 AM


Re: " ...a thousand other laws..."
Tangle writes:


It's pretty clear that the Catholic church changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday as a pure policy matter, presumably to make it different from Jewish practice.

The protestant believers came along after and didn't bother changing it back to the biblically correct Saturday. Now they have to dissemble to justify it.


This claim seems to be a good example of something that the Catholic Church "made up."

There is biblical evidence that Christians had begun meeting on Sunday as early as the first century, long before Constantine, Pope Gregory, or any organized Catholic Church existed:

quote:
Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we met to break bread, Paul began to speak to the people, and because he intended to leave the next day, he extended his message until midnight.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

“I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Tangle, posted 09-15-2015 4:34 AM Tangle has taken no action

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 684 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 217 of 506 (768976)
09-15-2015 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Tangle
09-15-2015 5:07 AM


Re: " ...a thousand other laws..."
I'll just repeat what kbertsche said now that I have a better idea of what you are saying. The Catholic Church didn't exist in the early years of the Church so whatever is claimed about their changing the day that far back is false.

As KB pointed out the Bible itself says the Church met on Sundays:

Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we met to break bread, Paul began to speak to the people, and because he intended to leave the next day, he extended his message until midnight.

Another reference to their assembling on Sunday is:

1Co 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by ringo, posted 09-15-2015 12:46 PM Faith has replied
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ringo
Member
Posts: 19540
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 218 of 506 (768977)
09-15-2015 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by NoNukes
09-15-2015 6:23 AM


Re: " ...a thousand other laws..."
NoNukes writes:

I understand that there are people who celebrate Christmas on Jan 6th because they believe that the added 10 days to the Gregorian calendar were inappropriate.


It isn't about belief. It's just that the eastern orthodox churches still use the Julian calendar for religious purposes. We have a lot of Ukrainians around here who celebrate both Christmases.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by NoNukes, posted 09-15-2015 6:23 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by NoNukes, posted 09-15-2015 1:14 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19540
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 219 of 506 (768978)
09-15-2015 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Faith
09-15-2015 12:37 PM


Re: " ...a thousand other laws..."
quote:
Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we met to break bread, Paul began to speak to the people, and because he intended to leave the next day, he extended his message until midnight.

They met because he was leaving on the next day. Presumably, if he was leaving on the fourth day, they could have met on any day before that.

quote:
1Co 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

That doesn't appear to have anything to do with church meetings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Faith, posted 09-15-2015 12:37 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Faith, posted 09-15-2015 1:10 PM ringo has replied
 Message 226 by kbertsche, posted 09-15-2015 1:55 PM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33913
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 220 of 506 (768981)
09-15-2015 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Faith
09-15-2015 12:37 PM


Re: " ...a thousand other laws..."
Nor is Sunday necessarily "the first day of the week". In Jewish tradition the Sabbath is sundown Friday until sundown Saturday. Sunday is considered the first day of the week. In Roman times Monday (Diana's day) was considered the first day of the week.

Long ago and in a land far far away I used to wander over to the Walter's Art Gallery to spend the time while dad was at work. One piece I remember was a beautiful cameo bracelet with the images of the deities for each day; Diana then Mars and Mercury, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn plus Apollo for Sunday as was proper.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 684 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 221 of 506 (768982)
09-15-2015 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by ringo
09-15-2015 12:46 PM


Re: " ...a thousand other laws..."
It has always been understood that those are references to the day of the week the Church met for worship, and there are no references whatever to their meeting on Saturday.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by ringo, posted 09-15-2015 12:46 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by ringo, posted 09-15-2015 1:27 PM Faith has taken no action

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 222 of 506 (768983)
09-15-2015 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by ringo
09-15-2015 12:39 PM


Re: " ...a thousand other laws..."
It isn't about belief. It's just that the eastern orthodox churches still use the Julian calendar for religious purposes.

Why isn't the use of the Julian calendar for religious purposes a matter of belief? Why is it considered important to use an old calendar that has the problem of having seasons, solstices etc. moving around the calendar over time?

http://www.timeanddate.com/.../common/orthodox-christmas-day

quote:
Christmas on January 7 is also known as Old Christmas Day. Eleven days were dropped to make up for the calendar discrepancy that accumulated with Julian calendar when England and Scotland switched from the Julian to the Gregorian calendar in 1752. Many people, especially in rural areas, did not accept the loss of these 11 days and preferred to use the Julian calendar.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by ringo, posted 09-15-2015 12:39 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by jar, posted 09-15-2015 1:21 PM NoNukes has taken no action
 Message 225 by ringo, posted 09-15-2015 1:32 PM NoNukes has taken no action

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33913
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 223 of 506 (768986)
09-15-2015 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by NoNukes
09-15-2015 1:14 PM


Re: " ...a thousand other laws..."

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by NoNukes, posted 09-15-2015 1:14 PM NoNukes has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19540
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 224 of 506 (768988)
09-15-2015 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Faith
09-15-2015 1:10 PM


Re: " ...a thousand other laws..."
Faith writes:

It has always been understood that those are references to the day of the week the Church met for worship...


But they are not. The wording is clear: they met the day before Paul left and no other reason is suggested, nor is it suggested that their meetings followed every seventh day after that. You're making it up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Faith, posted 09-15-2015 1:10 PM Faith has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19540
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 225 of 506 (768989)
09-15-2015 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by NoNukes
09-15-2015 1:14 PM


Re: " ...a thousand other laws..."
NoNukes writes:

Why isn't the use of the Julian calendar for religious purposes a matter of belief?


For the same reason I'm still using Windows XP - I haven't bothered to change; I have no need to change. It isn't because I believe Windows XP is better; it's just good enough.

NoNukes writes:

Why is it considered important to use an old calendar...?


It isn't important. They just didn't bother to change. Your own quote says it's a preference, not a belief.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by NoNukes, posted 09-15-2015 1:14 PM NoNukes has taken no action

  
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