Isaiah 53 speaks about ISRAEL, and not about the messiah.

This an argument that I may return to when I have more time and space to dedicate to it. That is right because John's emphasis is that this Christ is God Himself from eternity.Do you have a requirement that all four Gospels HAVE to repeat all details ? We give Matthew, Mark, Luke and John the freedom to emphasize each their own particular focus.A exceedingly profound Person like the Son of God must be viewed from more than one angle. So you want to insist that the four gospels all repeat exactly the same details.How about God gives us four biographies from four different angles.
Matthew - a King Savior.
Mark - a Slave Savior.
Luke - a Man Savior.
John - A Savior as God Himself.There is some overlap and there some particularity.Why be unbelieving because matters emphasized in Luke or not covered in John, whereas other matters take center stage?Why be skeptical because John's particular emphasis differs somewhat from Matthew's ? Not so at all. When I turned my heart over to Christ, believe me, Satan was judged subjectively in me. He suffered a strategic defeat.It is the same with every life that receives Jesus and goes on to grow spiritually in Jesus. This is the victory that matters. We are the battlefield. And the culmination of enough saved and filled with Jesus will usher end the times of the book of Revelation.You have not seen that the spiritual battlefield in the heart of man.
And the warfare is from the inside out also as it is from the outside objectively.Satan is defeated. The Gospel brings us into the subjective enjoyment of that defeat. At critical mass this defeat will not only be from the inside of man out but from the heavens down.We proclaim the Gospel of peace based on the reality that Satan HAS been crushed. If you want to eliminate Satan, then you should open wide your being and your heart and receive Jesus Christ as Lord.This will give him a huge migraine headache. I am not joking.
Your own heart is a part of the battlefield upon which God destroys this little snake Satan.That would be a marvelous conversion to the Christian faith - " Lord Jesus, I turn my heart over to You for the total destruction of God's enemy Satan. Lord Jesus, if Your gaining me hastens Your return then I consecrate my being to You for the defeat of Your enemy." Much could be said about the principles of spiritual warfare. But the judgment of Satan is complete. We humans, we saved humans participate in the execution of the already divinely passed sentencing. I read your story. This goes into the whole concept of Jesus the Copy Cat Savior. He is just a rehash of old pagan mythologies.When I barely have time to get into all the unsearchable riches of the Bible, Now I have go off and study all about all the Copy Cat theories.Maybe I'll just refer to others who spend scholarly time to address these theories. Patrick Holding on YouTube talks a lot about these things. Glenn Miller's Christian Thinktank has a whole lot on the "Jesus Copy Cat" conspiracy theories too.Here's pages and pages of dealing with "Jesus Copy Cat Myth" type questions:http://www.picosearch.com/cgi-bin/ts.pl?index=122340&quer... "The Christ Myth - Was Jesus a Pagan Copycat?" Patrick Holdinghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DdtkAXyJyo "Shattering the Christ Myth" Patrick Holdinghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUsTIaJLR_M " The Christ Myth Theory " Phil Fernades, Phd.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LirccY4F5I4 "Jesus Before He Was Born" Christopher J.H. Wright, Phd.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCFSps4gjUo You have some advantage here because I just don't have the heart to go off and read about these things.But there are those Christian apologists who really get into these complaints. Probably some orthodox Jewish apologists do as well. Alright, I'll say a little. It should not be too surprising that as man spread over the earth the early accounts passed down were embellished, tailored perhaps for more local needs, modified, rehashed, adopted to national concerns, etc multiplied among humans.So when someone points out many versions of a ancient flood story, we need not jump to the conclusion that Moses copied one of them. How about the true story as recorded in the Scripture was also somewhat in the collective memory of other early peoples. And they passed on versions of what happened from many other countries and ethnicities of antiquity ?So we have a few dozen or maybe a hundred competing stories about a big flood. I can understand that.That does not explain all the objections you have. But often what are suggested as plagiarized themes from mythology turn out to be dissimilar. There have been attempts to throw together fragments of several mythologies to concoct an overall theory that the Gospels are a rehash of these pushed together ancient myths.These are the kinds of things that I find I always have to go over again because I don't hold the details in my memory. And I don't think it is required of a believer in Jesus to HAVE to be a Phd. in 80 different ancient mythologies before he can love the Lord and have sweet fellowship with God.So this morning you got me. I don't want to spend hours going over the bull and Osiris and Horus and all that stuff. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

If you're interested in truthful discussion you might not assume anything until I express my opinion about your paragraph.

Please quote me where I expressed some doubt in:1.) Christ sitting upon a physical throne
2.) Christ being king over a united Israel
3.) Christ bringing in a world peaceI never said I doubted. I did allude to aspects of prophecy not yet fulfilled. And I compared this to the aspects of the Exodus and the coming into Canaan as unfolding over a period of time. Today in the church age the New Testament locates Jesus Christ in two places:1.) at the right hand of God interceding for His people - "Who is he who condemns? It is Christ Jesus who died and, rather, who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us." (Romans 8:34)2.) within the Christians as the Spirit of God/the Spirit of Christ = Christ Himself: " ... if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you ... the [human] spirit is life because of righteousness." (See Romans 8:9,10) This makes perfect sense because Christ seeks to train some of His believers to co-reign with Him. So it is not just the quantity of saved people He seeks through the Gospel age but the quality of the ones who go on to develop in the indwelling divine life.Through the years as He is on a throne in heaven at the right hand of God, He also perfects an army of consecrated ones over the centuries in preparation for them to be co-kings on with Him as He is enthroned on earth in the millennium:

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"He who overcomes, to him I will give to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat with My Father on His throne." (Rev. 3:21)

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You are searching for problems where none exist.I am not getting into the nature of any throne in heaven as to what materials and weight such an object is. I don't know that much nor need to know.It is sufficient that during this period while Christ is received physically in heaven (Acts 3:21) we believers draw close to Him by coming to the throne of grace:

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"Let us therefore come forward with boldness to the throne of grace that we may receive mercy and find grace for timely help." (Hebrews 4:16)

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Christ is enthroned now and Christ will be enthroned on the planet soon. I don't feel the need to argue the physics of furniture. We have some more important matters to attend to like living through Christ this divine life imparted into believers, just as Peter was commanded to speak:

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"Go and stand in the temple and speak to the people all the words of this life." (Acts 5:20)

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If "this life", this divine and resurrection [ZOE] life of Christ need be tested by years and centuries of opposition and attack to demonstrate the indestructible nature of the life of Christ, that is God's plan. The gates of Hell shall not prevail against the builded church though for 2,000 years the enemy of God try to prevail.The throne ON the ground, in Israel, whose government will be over the planet will take care of itself at the proper timing. No, you are coming upon some difficulties because of your unbelief. That's allThe prophecy you allude to from Jeremiah 22:28,30 only disqualifies Jesus Christ from being the Messiah if Joseph, a descendent of Jeconiah, was His physical father. Since He was born of the virgin Mary and is related to David through the blood line of Mary and not Joseph, Jeremiah 22:28,30 does not disqualify Jesus from being that Messianic descendent of David.Rather we worship God that He knows exactly what He is doing and faithfully fulfilled His promise in spite of the rejection of any descendent of king Jeconiah.David had two lines proceeding from him down to the Messiah:1.) From Solomon from whom Jeconiah came to Joseph - Mary's husband, with his disqualification to bear a Messiah.2.) From Nathan of whom the virgin Mary came who was not disqualified to be a mother of a Messiah.Jesus was related to David not through Joseph the "assumed" legal father.
Jesus was related to David through the virgin Mary the physical mother. There is no problem. What is your problem ?
Jesus proceeded out of the bowels of David not through David's son Solomon but through his other son Nathan. You're dusting off and re-trying failed arguments long ago debunked. That is your unbelief that Christ will have a second coming as He in this church age imparts His life as Holy Spirit into those responding to the Good News of His resurrection and Lordship.Maybe you should read the story of the skeptic in Second Kings chapter 7. The prophet told the skeptic that he would see the prophecy fulfilled but would not partake of it.He was unfortunately trampled by the people who rushed forward to enjoy the fulfillment as he stood there dumbfounded in his objective unbelief.

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And the captain had said, Even if Jehovah made windows in heaven, could this thing happen? and the man of God had said -

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Your eyes shall indeed see it, but you shall not eat from it.

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So it happened to him; for the people trampled him in the gate that he died." (2 Kings 7:19,20)

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You should be concerned that your unbelief will lead you to a similar fate. Jesus Christ will indeed take up His throne upon the earth. Will you be there to enjoy it? Or will you be one of those about whom God said:

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" Jehovah declares to my Lord, Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet." (Hebrews 1:13; Psalm 110:1)

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I want to prepare for that earthly throne in the millennium by coming to the throne of grace to enjoy His spiritual life imparted into me today. Your problem is imaginary.The wiser choice, I think, is to call Jesus Lord and recognize God's sovereignty. The disqualification of sons of Jeconiah do not stop Jesus of Nazareth from being the promised Davidic Messiah.Now because I hate to lose data on a technical glitch after having typed for a long time, I stop this reply here.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I'll take a few more pieces. I don't think your criticism works because of what I called before "overlap".In John where Christ is God you also have Him tired and thirsty by a well in chapter 4, with the Samaritan women incident.Therefore you can hardly accuse John of attempting to "gloss over" a Lukian focus of Jesus being a typical human man.Neither can you accuse Matthew of "glossing over" the equally vital revelation of John that He is God. For Matthew has Jesus forgiving sins, as only God could do.Mark portraying the Slave Savior highlights the line that Jesus came not to be served but TO serve by giving His life as a ransom for many - a Total Slave.
But Matthew's King Savior also includes the passage.So we do not see the four Gospels fighting against each other as perhaps you would be delighted to notice. We see particular emphasis and overlap too.And why not? We are being told of a most profound Individual - the mingling of Divinity and Humanity. Of course such a rich Person requires to be viewed from more than just one angle. It is no problem to the heart of man that is wide open to the word of God and the Person of Jesus.There is no argument from me here. The uncreated and eternal life of God is rich and profound and God sovereignly ordained the report of Him to come to us in four Gospels. They four have their particular focus and their overlap as well.Why not instead be very thankful to God for such a panoramic view of this Wonderful One? I know about the unknown probably Fifth Gospel source. That the documents are related has been obvious for centuries. It is also evident that no cut and dry statistical comparison of passages conclusively decides exactly how these documents came down to us.It is rather like separating salt from pepper with boxing gloves.
It is pretty mysterious.
That too, I believe, is under God's sovereignty.What exactly the so-called Q document was, no one knows for sure.
I have no problem believing that Matthew witnessed the things spoken of in his gospel.
I have no problem believing Mark as traditionally thought of as Peter's assistant, heard what Peter preached quite accurately. And he even may have witnessed some of the things recorded in the Gospel after his name.John, I regard as an eyewitness.
And Luke the Gentile physician and Paul's companion, I regard as a very careful journalist who researched all these things. That means that Luke did not include any and all things he heard but was careful as a historian. Just because the birth narrative is omitted from Mark and John is no reason to assume that they were "unfamiliar" with it.The hilarity you speak of I know nothing of.
I already witnessed your not so hilarious attempt to drag out the old Jeconiah argument only to have it shot down like a clay pigeon as usual. You are still being given time to turn and believe in repentance. Then when the end times comes you will not have to join Satan in his miserable destiny.Believe me, his only power is his power to lie.
Christ has overcome the Devil. And that overcoming is transmitted to those who walk in Christ. From the book of Genesis this serpent (the Devil) IS one to be defeated. The first gospel message was preached by God to Eve and Adam. And it concerned the destruction of the tempting serpent through the woman's seed:

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" And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed;

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He will bruise you on the head, But you will bruise him on the heel." (Genesis 3:15)

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This is a prophecy of the Son of God born to the virgin as the woman's seed destroying him who had the power of death, the Devil.

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"Since therefore the children have shared in blood and flesh, He [God's Son] also Himself in like manner partook of the same, that through death He might destroy him who has the might of death, that is, the devil." (Hebrews 2:14)

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The night I called the Lord Jesus to turn my life over to Him, I witnessed something of the destroying of the devil subjectively in my life.

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" ... For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

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Everyone who has been begotten of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God." (1 John 3:8,9)

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The Satanic spirit fights to keep men from believing into the Son of God. Each sinner he can keep from being saved is a preemptive attempt to save himself from eternal perdition. He knows he cannot win. He only madly seeks to postpone and take as many deceived humans down with himself.You should not take credit for all the unbelieving ideas that flood into your intellect to rationalize the Son of God away. I think some of these thoughts are injected into your consciousness by the Satanic spirit that seeks to keep you blinded to the truth.But the new birth, the divine implanted seed, and learning to walk and abide in that influence of that divine seed is a practical defeat to Satan in a man's life.The sentence has been given. The execution awaits a corporate executioner of matured sons of God.It is totally exciting for we Christians know that Christ cannot fail to spread His victory from His overcoming through an overcoming corporate Body of Christ.

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"Now is come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them day and night.

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And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death." (Rev. 12:10,11)

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In this church age, which probably is swiftly moving towards a close, Christ seeks to demonstrate His victory in the lives of those who walk in Christ, walk in the new birth by the divine seed of God's life in them.The opportunity to co-partake of this victory is still open to those who will receive Christ as Lord and Savior and learn to walk in Him. The Angel of the Lord can be AN ADVERSARY to someone without being THE Devil or Satan.The Angel of Jehovah was an adversary to the Canaanites as Joshua fought on behalf of the army of Jehovah.I never once considered that the angel with the drawn sword invisibly standing before Balaam the greedy prophet, was the Devil. Rather it was God showing that Balaam's way of going was a way of death.Yes God commanded him to go. But that was by God's providence. According to Balaam's way of going it was disobedience and death.Latter we see the greedy prophet completely apostate and advising the enemies of Israel to fight against them by tempting them with mass fornication. (See Numbers 31:16; 25:1-3; Deut. 23:4) .The corrupted prophet's way of going was a way of sure death. That is the significance of God sending an angel to stand in the way. The ass had more sense than the deluded greedy prophet.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

We agree that God strictly forbade the Israelites to perform human sacrifices of any kind. Proof texts are not necessary I think.I think we also agree that one of the reasons God judged the Canaanite nations so harshly was because of their child sacrifices.Does the New Testament say that God sacrificed His Son ? I think I would have to say yes:

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"Indeed, He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not also with Him freely give us all things." (Romans 8:32)

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The "abomination" of child sacrifice is in mankind doing what only God would do. This is the reason why God commanded that animals should be used in the offerings and not children as the Canaanite nations did.When God wanted to prove Abraham's devotion by telling him to offer up his son, his only son, the son of the promise which was long in coming, God STOPPED Abraham and pointed to the ram in the thicket. The animal ram was provided for the sacrifice and Abraham called the place "The Lord Will Provide" Jehovah - jireh (Gen.22:14).God will provide the unique offering.
Therefore it was an abomination for Abraham or the Canaanites to offer human sacrifice.From the angle of God being triune, the offering of the Son of God was God offering Himself, for the Son is God.The obedience of Abraham proved Abraham loved God more than God's blessing, namely Abraham's only son. The obedience of Jesus Christ manifests God in a man loving man more than loving Himself.The Son of God voluntarily made Himself an offering for sin as the prophecy in Isaiah foretold:

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"But Jehovah was pleased to crush Him, to afflict Him with grief. When He [the Suffering Servant] makes Himself an offering for sin ..." (Isaiah 53:10a)

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On one hand concerning the Trinity, God gave His Son, no doubt.
On the other hand concerning the Trinity this was God in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.In John, the Gospel focusing on Jesus being God incarnate, it records His stepping forward of His own to be captured and crucified:

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"Jesus therefore, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth and said to them, Whom do you seek?

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They answered Him, Jesus the Nazarene. He said to them, I am ... When therefore He said to them, I am, they drew back and fell to the ground.

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Then again He asked them, Whom do you seek ? And they said, Jesus the Nazarene. Jesus answered, I told you that I am; if therefore you seek Me, let these go away." (See John 18:4-8)

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The Man Jesus of Nazareth confessing "I am" was the confession that He was God incarnate. The sheer power of His pronouncement drove them back to fall upon the ground. For this was the same God Who had said to Moses "I AM THAT I AM" in Exodus 3:14 .This was the One who was the "I AM" before Abraham had come into existence (John 8:58). God as a Man in Christ voluntarily offers Himself - "When He makes Himself an offering for sin" (Isa. 53:10) This offered Son has the authority to lay down His life and to take it up again.

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"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it up again. No one takes it away from Me, but I lay it down of Myself.

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I have the authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it again. This commandment I received from My Father." (John 10:17,18)

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I do not count this as a parent pitted against a child, sacrificing it for crop growth or fertility. Yes, I agree from one angle we have God giving His Son. But from another angle - "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not accounting their offenses to them ... " (2 Cor. 5:19b) - Paul CopanEdited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Do you think I recently figured this out ?
It was always evident to me that God forbade human sacrifice. However Genesis 9:6 concerning capital punishment was a general command. Israel was the one and only unique theocratic nation. But too many moral (not ritualistic ) aspects of the law are applicable to all men. The same moral laws, I think, are said to be written on our hearts. No. Isaiah 53 is about a Suffering Servant dying on behalf of Israel.We seem to be down to chat mode here. Feel free to shoulder the burden to explain a little more.Isaiah depicts a number of servants of God - Isaiah the prophet himself, Cyrus the king, Israel the nation, and the Suffering Servant. All of them point to Christ. The Suffering Servant of chapter 53 probably most strongly does so.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I am a bit confused. In your criticism of the Christian Gospel which hat do you like to wear - that of an atheist or that of a Tanach believing Jewish theist ?Or do you just use one set of complaints to act as a kind of "back up" Plan B set of objections if your primary ones show up weak ?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

You don't care for belief ? You seem to care rather consistently for describing why, say, my belief is invalid here, there, and here again.You seem to care when studying the Bible renders a typical Christian belief. Ie. you care enough to demonstrate regarding Isaiah 53 as a prophecy concerning a Redeemer offering Himself for man's atonement before God, is unwarranted belief.

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"Because He poured out His life [soul] unto death and was numbered with the transgressors, Yet He alone bore the sins of many and interceded for the transgressors." (v.12b)

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A great deal of care seems to suddenly kick in when it is suggested that Jesus Christ is the one who taught that He "alone" bore the sins of "many" and interceded for the many transgressors - from hanging upon His cross He interceded -

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"And Jesus said, Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." (Luke 23:34)

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Do you care much that we not regard such a man as Jesus as the referent of Isaiah 53's prophecy ?If you think the text more obviously carries the meaning that Israel is dying an atoning death for Israel, I think you run into problems with that interpretation. It would not make sense here:

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"That He was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due ? And they assigned His grave with the wicked." (v.8b)

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If the stroke was due his people then how could his people bear the stroke in some kind of substitutionary way ? If the people are deserving of punishment then how can they themselves be innocently punished on behalf of themselves ? In that case they would be simply receiving what was due to them.Isaiah further says God has caused the iniquity of "us all" to fall upon Him.

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"We all like sheep have gone astray, each one of us has turned to his own way, And Jehovah has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him." (v.6)

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If "we all" have sinned then for the iniquity to fall upon "we all" is not substitutionary. So Israel cannot be an atoning offering on behalf of Israel. It is not logical. I don't know too many people as you describe, that is, that were either believers in Judaism or believers in the New Testament, that gave up faith in God altogether.A "new covenant" is predicted by the prophet Jeremiah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 with the theocratic nation. That indicates a covenant of like impact and significance as the covenant of Law given at Sinai:

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"Indeed, days are coming, declares Jehovah, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

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Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by their hand to bring them out from the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was thier Husband, declares Jehovah." (Jer. 31:31)

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God speaks of a new covenant not like the former given through Moses at Mt. Sinai.We have 27 books dedicated to one extraordinary Jesus of Nazareth, teaching that in His broken body and shed blood on His cross a "new covenant" is established. We ought to take Jesus seriously, I think, seeing He was so totally extraordinary and absolute for the will of His "Father".

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" And similarly the cup after they had dined, saying, This cup is THE NEW COVENANT established in My blood, which is being poured out for you." (Luke 22:20 my emphasis)

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"And He took the cup and gave thanks, and He gave it to His disciples and said, Drink of it, all of you,

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For this is My blood of THE COVENANT, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins." (Matt. 26:27,28 my emphasis)

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I advocate the life, teaching, death and resurrection of Jesus as germane to the fulfillment of the prophet Jeremiah's prophecy of a "new covenant" established by God. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I still regard ancient Israel, before and after the divide, as the unique collective national theocracy.

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"Jehovah will establish you as a holy people to Himself, as He swore to you, if you keep the commandments of Jehovah your God and walk in His ways. And all the peoples of the earth will see that you are called by Jehovah's name, and they will be afraid of you." (Deut. 28:9,10)

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"And it is Jehovah who has today declared you to be a people for His personal treasure, even as He promised you; and that you will keep all His commandments; And that He will set you high above all the nations which He has made, for praise and for a name and for honor; and that you will be a holy people to Jehovah your God, as He has spoken." (Deut. 26:18,19)

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Many other passages show this unique aspect of Israel both before and after the split following Rehaboam. Deuteronomy is way before Josiah the king. And even prior to that is God's promises in Genesis to obtaining a theocratic nations through Abraham's seed through which all the families of the earth would be blessed. It is more than adoration of individual kings. It is God's speaking of the people of Israel and Judah as a whole.Before any kings were established God was their King in the Five Books of Moses, Joshua, Judges and as it was taught in First and Second Samuel. Through good kings and bad kings, through unity and through schism Israel was God peculiar treasure for His personal possession. They had a mission to be a light to the Gentiles. That they desired often to be like the surrounding nations, as the Scripture indicates, did not make them not God's unique theocratic nation. In many cases this desire to be like the surrounding nations was their moral and spiritual downfall.They were often disciplined. But they remained God's unique nation.
At times God reminded them that He loved other peoples and nations.
At times God reminded them that He even delivered other nations from oppression. They were not the only ones so delivered from oppression. However, these humbling lessons did not change His special covenant relationship with them.Concerning Isaiah 53: The essence of Isaiah 53 is that One innocent, righteous, and not guilty is bearing the chastisement on behalf of those who are not. Any kind of interpretation that they sinful are suffering FOR the sinful is incongruous to the chapter. None of them are Jesus. But in one aspect or another they are a preview of Jesus as a foreshadow. Christ is really the center of the divine revelation of the whole Bible.Even Cyrus the king of Persia is used to be a figure of Christ as the One bringing back the people and rebuilding the broken down house of God.Of course in ALL aspects we cannot say Cyrus is exactly like Christ.
And the same would go for Moses, Aaron, Joshua, David, Solomon, Hezekiah to name a few.In their positive aspects they were pre-figures of Jesus Christ.
This is how Jesus spoke concerning some of these Old Testament characters:

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" ... she [the queen of the south] came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something more than Solomon is here." (Matt. 12:42)

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" .. they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something more than Jonah is here." (v.41)

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Sometimes there is no explicit mention of a Old Testament figure as a type of Christ. But it seems pretty obvious. For example Joseph sold by his brothers and three days in a pit, raised from suffering and oppression to be ruler of Egypt. His own persecuting brothers failing to recognize him until Joseph revealed himself to them.Isaiah 53's Suffering Servant certainly points to Jesus Christ. And it is interesting that Isaiah begins the prophecy with a alarming cry that though the prophets have spoken, no one, for a time, believes their truthful message from God:

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"Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of Jehovah been revealed?

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For He grew up like a tender plant before Him, and like a rot out of dry ground. etc. etc." (Isaiah 53:1,2)

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The period of unbelief can be over for those who look back now and realize the prophet was speaking about the Son of God.You have Him dying in verse 9 and 10. Yet you have Him brought back to life in verse 11.

I am back in the discussion as time permits. Jesus Christ is still in the ongoing process of prophecy fulfillment.When Moses came to the Hebrews they also doubted before the plagues that he was the deliverer sent by God. After the Exodus they also had episodes of doubt. They wanted on occasion to stone him and secure another leader to take them BACK to Egypt.The Messianic King reigns unto eternity, forever. It is not too surprising that in the unfolding of His kingdom some doubt because of the outworking of God's purposes. Yeshua, the Lord Jesus Christ surely IS the Anointed One and the Messiah.The brothers of Joseph went through a period when he was dealing with him and they did not recognize him. He tested them and disciplined them as a Ruler in Egypt in Genesis. Yet his heart ached to make himself known to their ignorance. But he restrianed himself and kept his emotions in check.Joseph dealt with his brothers in a number of ways and they did not know that he was the brother that they betrayed and left in a pit to die.The story is a window into how the Jews are being tested by their Messiah in their ignorance of Him. Eventually they are made to know that He is the very one they rejected. But their Messiah, Who is Lord of all, will deal wisely with them as Joseph did to his brothers who were eventually forced to come for him for saving.I suggest that you read again the story of Joseph in Genesis. It is pointing to the REAL Joseph who is Jesus the Son of God.

He appeared to 500 ore more disciples at one time (First Corinthian 15:6) . Paul says most of them were still alive by the time he wrote his First Corinthian letter. Jesus trained His disciples after His resurrection over a period of 40 days (Acts 1:3)

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"To whom also He presented Himself alive after His suffering by many irrefutable proofs, appearing to them through a period of forty days and speaking the things concerning the kingdom of God" ( Acts 1:3 )

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The things "concerning the kingdom of God" include learning to live by the His invisible presence. Though they cannot see Him He will be with them even unto the consummation of the age (Matt. 28:20) . He will live within them as the life giving Holy Spirit that He is now:

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" ...the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

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He was not merely about them knowing that He rose from the dead. God's plan is that He be imparted into them and they walk by that resurrection presence.For this reason He taught them over a period of 40 days that even though He physically and spiritually was resurrected they still must see more by revelation. And they also must walk by faith and not by sight. To begin with then He hid His obvious physical recognizability from them. Meanwhile the truth of the Scriptures burned in their hearts.

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"And their eyes were opened, and they recognized him, and He disappeared from them. And they said to one another, Was not our heart burning within us while He wasy speaking to us on the road, while He was opening to us the Scriptures?" (Luke 24:31,32)

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He was training them for weeks to learn to live by His unseen and unobvious physical detection. Yet He was indeed raised from the dead.Notice that it does not say that He went away. Rather it says that He disappeared from their sight. They would need the memory of seeing Him. But much more they would need the truth of the Scripture burning in their hearts to face the work of tesifying for Him to a hostile world.Another reason is that Christ is now within all the believers. And though we look different, we Christians must have the deep realization that regardless of this, Jesus Christ Himself in actually living within all the followers of Jesus. How differently we would be toward each other if this essential truth was grasped. And some do grasp it.So He did make Himself known to them in the typical way. Yet He also trained them to live by the deeper truth of His being always present with them supernaturally and until the time He physically returns to the earth. Since Mary was of course also a disciple, she partook of the same kind of training. She had to learn to live by His invisible presence which is not so typically recongnizable. This is part of the kingdom of God.At the right moment, her eyes were opened and she recognized Him in the typical physical way that we would expect. This was deliberate and temporary. It is also wonderful that just a word from Him - "Mary" and her whole being instantly recognized her beloved Teacher. The recognition of the living and available risen Son of God is a matter deep in the human spirit. It is objectively true that He rose and subjectively experiential in its enjoyment.Remember, He told Thomas that not all would have the blessing of SEEING Him in His resurrection. He said blessed are those who have not seen and have believed. So God does all things in the right way and at the right time.

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" Then He said to Thomas, Bring your finger here and see My hands, and bring your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.

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Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!

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Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed." (John 20:27-29)

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But so far he didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies.

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Yes He did or Judaism would not be spending the last 20 centuries trying to deny it.The stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner. You are ample evidence of that.

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Fact of the matter is and remains: JC did NOT fulfill the messianic prophecies.

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You're trained to deny that He did.Your opposition is evidence to me that Jesus Christ is the stone that the builders rejected. He has become the head of the corner.

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Yeshua, the Lord Jesus Christ surely IS the Anointed One and the Messiah.
How is that possible when he never was anointed to be a king by a priest and/or a prophet?

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His words, life, deeds testify that He had every REALITY of the anointing of God.He was so anointed that Judaism has spent 20 centuries trying to UN-anoint Him.

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I suggest that you read again the story of Joseph in Genesis. It is pointing to the REAL Joseph who is Jesus the Son of God.
The story of Joseph has of course zero pertinence to JC.

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Its a foreshadow.Like Joseph's brother who spent some time ignorant as to Who this Ruler actually was, their brother, so you display that same kind of ignorance.You don't realize Him. And as Joseph delayed unveiling Himself to them, so He is taking some time to discipline the Jews also.It is inevitable that they will one day realize that this was their "brother" the Jewish Messiah. It is not a question of IF. It is only a question of WHEN.

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Let's get back to the subject of this thread;

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I haven't read any of this discussion for months. I have read enough this afternoon to realize that you are in the dark as to the identity of the Messiah.You're expecting Someone ELSE to come along more impressive than Jesus ?

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What proofs can you give from the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah?

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Israel cannot bear Israel's own sins. So it must be talking about the suffering Servant of the One crucified for their sins and raised.Interesting, the prophet begins the chapter by complaining that NO ONE believes the report of the prophets -Who has believed our report ?You exemplify this unbelief.I know in the book of Isaiah more than one person or entity is said to be God's Servant. And I know that in some instance Israel itself is said to be God's Servant. But in this chapter 53 the Servant cannot be Israel.The better candidate is Jesus.