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Author Topic:   Climate Change Denier comes in from the cold: SCIENCE!!!
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 226 of 944 (769940)
09-26-2015 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by NoNukes
09-26-2015 8:01 PM


a need for morality and empathy
What's so funny about Petro and foreveryoungs's's posts is that they seem to see taxes as bad instead of not just good, but great. It's the classic position of those with no moral sense or empathy; certainly the absolute opposite of anything Jesus might have thought or taught.
But it also ignores some of the things that will be needed most over the next decade or two; a legal and political framework that will be needed to handle hundreds of thousands of refugees as well as relocating hundreds of thousands of current citizens and the resources that will be needed to feed and house all those people; the infrastructure that will be required to mitigate the impact of all those refugees and displaced folk; a plan to make the transitions gradual and incremental, to evacuate the areas that will get flooded before it is a crisis and laws to prevent additional folk from moving into situations where they will just need to be relocated later.
There also needs to be plans and programs in place to try to deal with the effects caused by water and food shortages.
Then we probably also be wise to look beyond just our borders to the rest of the world.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by NoNukes, posted 09-26-2015 8:01 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 227 of 944 (769943)
09-26-2015 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by jar
09-26-2015 9:33 PM


Re: a need for morality and empathy
What's so funny about Petro and foreveryoungs's's posts is that they seem to see taxes as bad instead of not just good, but great.
If that is your belief, your taxes should be 100%, if not more. That would be really great, right?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by jar, posted 09-26-2015 9:33 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 231 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-27-2015 10:43 AM Coyote has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 228 of 944 (769955)
09-27-2015 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by Coyote
09-26-2015 11:45 PM


Re: a need for morality and empathy
While what you post makes absolutely no sense in relation to what I posted and even suggesting a tax rate over 100% is pretty stupid, the actual answer is "Sure, if in return I and all others are provided with what is needed in the way of shelter, food, education, protection, healthcare and future viability".
Taxes are a necessity and are not something bad at all.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Coyote, posted 09-26-2015 11:45 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by RAZD, posted 09-27-2015 9:58 AM jar has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 229 of 944 (769957)
09-27-2015 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by jar
09-27-2015 9:01 AM


"Make America Great Again" ?
To "Make America Great Again" we would need to
  1. restore Eisenhower era tax rates
  2. restore unions and rights to advocate for workers
  3. restore regulations on Wall Street, banks and corporations
  4. remove Citizen's United and all corporate, union, association, religious group, etc etc etc from funding campaigns
  5. raise minimum wage to a living wage
  6. reduce military spending
  7. stop invading countries for corporations
  8. increase immigration, make immigration easier and bring in more refugees
  9. promote science in schools
  10. welcome scientific knowledge in the decision making process whenever appropriate
  11. go to mars instead of to war
... for a start.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by jar, posted 09-27-2015 9:01 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by jar, posted 09-27-2015 10:25 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 239 by xongsmith, posted 10-08-2015 4:48 PM RAZD has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 230 of 944 (769958)
09-27-2015 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by RAZD
09-27-2015 9:58 AM


Re: "Make America Great Again" ?
Are you suggesting stuff like Conservative Republican Presidents Theodore Roosevelt, Eisenhower and Nixon proposed? Next you will be suggesting Universal Single Payor Health Care and Regulated Monopoly Utilities where their income is based on their investment in infrastructure and that could be used as safe retirement investments by the average person.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by RAZD, posted 09-27-2015 9:58 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by RAZD, posted 09-27-2015 10:52 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(3)
Message 231 of 944 (769959)
09-27-2015 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by Coyote
09-26-2015 11:45 PM


Re: a need for morality and empathy
If that is your belief, your taxes should be 100%, if not more. That would be really great, right?
If you think food is good, you should spend 100% of your time eating, if not more.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Coyote, posted 09-26-2015 11:45 PM Coyote has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 232 of 944 (769961)
09-27-2015 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by jar
09-27-2015 10:25 AM


Re: "Make America Great Again" ?
... and Regulated Monopoly Utilities where their income is based on their investment in infrastructure and that could be used as safe retirement investments by the average person.
Make that not-for-profit utilities and hospitals any other business the serves basic needs for people (food? housing?) and I'm in. Make it so corporations have to share profits with workers as they do for share-holders, with workers and shareholders voting (one vote per person) on wages, electing board of directors and leaders (ie democratic companies instead of autocratic) and I'm in.
Become a world leader in science and technology again, by promoting green science (renewable energy, waste reduction, full cycle cost analysis including waste disposal and environmental cleanup) and promoting social reforms like democracy and equality and justice.
Become a world leader in education and learning by providing free community college education to those who want it, and full ride scholarships for higher education in return for commitments to return that learning with community service.
Let startup companies go tax free for 3 years (average time to become viable) and only tax self-employed people as employees ...
So much to do ...
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by jar, posted 09-27-2015 10:25 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 233 of 944 (769962)
09-27-2015 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by petrophysics1
09-26-2015 5:14 PM


Re: A Geology Education
Foreveryoung,
Nothing like having the perspective of the last 600 million years in relation to climate as opposed to looking at the last 150 years with blinders on.
So using the Vostek ice core data no one here can show/prove a relationship between CO2 and the Earth's temperature.
The Earth's main greenhouse gas is water vapor responsible for 97% of the greenhouse gas effect (the EPA says 95%). But there is no easy way to tax water vapor.
That is not the case with CO2, as there are many ways this can be taxed. As Michael Faraday replied to a MP who asked what good is this knowledge, Mike responded "You may be able to figure out a way to tax it" or something along those lines.
This CO2, AGW thing is just a way to tax people..............so loved by the big government types.
Also I heard that paleontologists fake all the dinosaur bones to turn people away from Jesus.
But I didn't believe it, 'cos I'm not a paranoid loony.

This message is a reply to:
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foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 582 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 234 of 944 (770514)
10-07-2015 4:13 AM


A blog named the "hockey shtick" has an article that posted on September 19th, 2015 called "Why greenhouse gasses don't trap heat in the atmosphere". It is written by a regular poster there named KevinK.
He explains why the Arhennius theory of the greenhouse effect is a fiction in that it confuses the cause with the effect where the actual cause is the gravito-thermal greenhouse effect and the actual effect is the IR absorption and emission of IR active greenhouse gases. The gravito-thermal greenhouse effect is described in detail in the peer-reviewed paper (the 33C gravito-thermal greenhouse effect of Maxwell, Clausius, Carnot, Boltzmann, Feynman, US Standard Atmosphere, the HS greenhouse equation, et al). This paper gives the real reason for the 33C difference between an earth with no atmosphere and an earth with its present atmosphere as opposed to the one espoused as "common knowledge".
He starts his article with a response to Mike Jonas who wrote "At last we come to something which is quite well understood. The ability of CO2 to absorb and re-emit a specific part of the light spectrum is well understood and well quantified, supported by a multitude of laboratory experiments.
Yes indeed this is not in doubt. However, the result of this phenomenon in the climate is still very much in doubt. Especially with regard to the average temperature. Aside from the fact that an average temperature has no useful meaning. I’m reminded of the old observation that if one of your feet is in ice water and the other is in boiling water you are on average quite comfortable overall.
Here is where the alleged GHE breaks down. There are numerous examples of human designed optical systems (aka applied radiation physics) that exhibit back radiation. Including the optical integrating sphere and the multi layer optical interference filter. In both cases back radiation certainly exists, but it can be difficult to measure. In neither case does the back radiation alone cause the source to reach a higher temperature.
In the specific case of an optical integrating sphere the interior surface of the sphere (highly reflective) becomes a virtual light source. This concept of a virtual source is somewhat specific to the optical engineering community. It helps with understanding (and predicting) the paths that photons will follow through a system. However (and this is a very big however) it DOES NOT predict the energy present at any point in the system.
In the case of an optical integrating sphere with an incandescent filament (aka a light bulb) inside this back radiation merely delays the elapsed travel time of the photons flowing through the system. This is a result of the photons bouncing back and forth inside the sphere until they find an exit port.
This is known as the transient response of an optical integrating sphere.
This is a somewhat obscure but still well understood concept. If you inject an input pulse of light (off, then quickly on, then quickly off again) this transient response function will create a stretched pulse of output light. Specifically this square input pulse is no longer a square output pulse since some photons will quickly find an exit port and others will bounce near and far before exiting the sphere.
The gaseous atmosphere of the Earth is quite like an optical integrating sphere in this regard. The photons arriving from the Sun and being converted to emitted IR radiation (still a form of light or electromagnetic radiation and following all of the same rules/laws) simply bounce back and forth between the atmosphere and the surface. All this bouncing merely delays the flow of energy through the system as the energy alternates between light energy and thermal energy.
Given the dimensions of the atmosphere (about 5 miles high) and the velocity of light (still considered quite speedy) this alleged GHE merely delays the flow of energy (arriving as sunlight) through the system by a few tens of milliseconds. The specific delay for any given photon is of course described by a statistical distribution.
Since the period of the arriving light is about 24 hours this delay of a few tens of milliseconds has no effect on the average temperature at the surface of the Earth.
Another example of back radiation and its practical uses is the multi layer optical interference coating. This is the highly engineered coating on most modern optical lenses. It appears slightly purple when observed off-axis. The purpose of this coating is to reduce reflections from the surface of a lens.
These coatings have greatly improved the quality of photographs and videos by increasing contrast and reducing ghost images (images that are created by the individual surfaces inside a modern optical lens).
These coatings function by delaying following photons by a time equivalent to a fraction of the wavelength of the arriving light. By creating exactly the correct delay interval the reflected light is exactly out of phase from the arriving light and destructive optical interference occurs. This moves the optical energy to a location inside the optical lens where it is no longer subject to surface reflections.
Both of these applied radiation physics effects/techniques have been applied for decades and are quite well understood.
The alleged radiative greenhouse effect merely delays the flow of energy through the system and has no effect on the average temperature. It does change the response time of the gases in the climate. Since the gases have the smallest thermal capacity of all the components present (Oceans, land masses, atmosphere) the idea that they are controlling the average temperature is quite ludicrous.
Modeling these radiative effects in the climate is probably impossible. The required spatial distances are sub-micron the the time steps necessary are in the nanosecond range. There would need to be a increase of computing power of about ten orders of magnitude to even begin to attempt this.
There is of course a gravitational greenhouse effect whereby the effects of gravity acting on the gases in the atmosphere of the Earth predict quite well (see the US standard atmosphere model last updated in 1976) the temperature of the atmosphere of the Earth with no use of radiative effects at all.
It is quite sad that all this effort has been wasted on modeling the unmodelable.
Cheers, KevinK
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is why an increase in co2 levels has no effect whatsoever on temperatures. The so called trapping of heat is in response to the gravito-thermal greenhouse effect of Maxwell and others. This determines what the temperature will be and the greenhouse gases only raise the temperature set at that level and no more and no less.

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by Pressie, posted 10-07-2015 8:43 AM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 236 by Theodoric, posted 10-07-2015 9:22 AM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 237 by NoNukes, posted 10-07-2015 2:55 PM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 238 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-08-2015 2:19 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 235 of 944 (770520)
10-07-2015 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by foreveryoung
10-07-2015 4:13 AM


A blog??
foreveryoung writes:
A blog named the "hockey shtick" has an article that posted on September 19th, 2015 called "Why greenhouse gasses don't trap heat in the atmosphere".
A blog, hey? Colour me unimpressed.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 236 of 944 (770523)
10-07-2015 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by foreveryoung
10-07-2015 4:13 AM


That's ok. I will get my science from actual scientists that use their actual names.
Oh I see KevinK claims to be an optical and electrical engineer. Hardly an expert on climate science. There is a bit more to the subject than optics.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by foreveryoung, posted 10-07-2015 4:13 AM foreveryoung has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 237 of 944 (770539)
10-07-2015 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by foreveryoung
10-07-2015 4:13 AM


He explains why the Arhennius theory of the greenhouse effect is a fiction in that it confuses the cause with the effect where the actual cause is the gravito-thermal greenhouse effect and the actual effect is the IR absorption and emission of IR active greenhouse gases.
Just which one of your BS theories about the cause of global warming are we supposed to take seriously? You are just flitting from one piece of bad science to another without making any effort to critically analyze whether what you are backing makes the least bit of sense.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 238 of 944 (770592)
10-08-2015 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by foreveryoung
10-07-2015 4:13 AM


He explains why the Arhennius theory of the greenhouse effect is a fiction in that it confuses the cause with the effect where the actual cause is the gravito-thermal greenhouse effect and the actual effect is the IR absorption and emission of IR active greenhouse gases. The gravito-thermal greenhouse effect is described in detail in the peer-reviewed paper (the 33C gravito-thermal greenhouse effect of Maxwell, Clausius, Carnot, Boltzmann, Feynman, US Standard Atmosphere, the HS greenhouse equation, et al). This paper gives the real reason for the 33C difference between an earth with no atmosphere and an earth with its present atmosphere as opposed to the one espoused as "common knowledge".
Look, foreveryoung, you've got to get yourself some more spidey-sense. Greatly to your credit, you have rejected some of the silly ideas you used to have. But you still don't know how to spot a silly idea a mile away.
I've been looking at this guy's stuff and he's a grade-A loony. I'll explain why at length and in detail if you like, but you might want to look it over again yourself and see if you can spot the signs.
One question to start you off. You mention a "peer-reviewed paper". Where is it?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


(1)
Message 239 of 944 (770596)
10-08-2015 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by RAZD
09-27-2015 9:58 AM


Re: "Make America Great Again" ?
RAZD lists at his end:
go to mars instead of to war
curious that Mars happens to be the the God of War....

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by RAZD, posted 09-27-2015 9:58 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by RAZD, posted 10-08-2015 7:47 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 240 of 944 (770599)
10-08-2015 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by xongsmith
10-08-2015 4:48 PM


Re: "Make America Great Again" ?
go to mars instead of to war
curious that Mars happens to be the the God of War....
Indeed, so if we are ever going to put an end to the aggrandizement of weapons makers we need to go to the source.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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