|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: How long does it take to evolve? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 312 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
|
No matter how slight the improvement is, is that not an astounding chain of events? Well, lots of things are true and astounding. The fact that the world is round. Quantum mechanics. The existence of giraffes. But is there an actual argument? If this is meant to be it:
Even the most miniscule, subtle improvement would require a huge degree of organization. ... then I confess I can't make head nor tail of it. Could you expand on it a little? Normally what is needed for a minuscule subtle improvement is actually a minuscule subtle change.
Similarly, The wonders of the eye as we know it seems to good to have overgone such a handicapped development process. "Seems". Again, you don't so much have an argument as a feeling of incredulity. But the interesting thing is that eyes do appear to exhibit the fingerprints of just such a "handicapped design process". For example, there is the famous case of the blind spot in the vertebrate eye. We can see how the eye can be improved, but it can't be improved by making it incrementally better, only by going right back to the drawing board and starting over, which evolution can't do. What we have here, then, is a point in favor of evolution, not against it.
An analogy was made to a centipede multiplying its feet through mutations. Without any intention to be disrespectful, it seems amateurish to simplify so drastically . So much is required for something like that to happen, I am not so sure it makes it any easier to understand. I don't follow you. "So much" needs to happen for what? The duplication of a segment? I don't think so.
Even if there is a beneficial mutation somewhere somehow, they are so rare that by the time it happened, the beneficial species would be outnumbered a trillion to one. By the time the effects of its beneficial mutation started to increase its population, the other trillion cousins , at all far flung parts of the world, would have multiplied to 1 trillion times ( insert some big number), and have their own representation of beneficial mutations. Repeat. And repeat. And repeat. Life as we know it ought to be far more diverse than it is today. Well, this is a classic creationist trope: the non-quantitative quantitative argument. How did you measure how much diversity there is in life today? You didn't. How did you calculate how much diversity there would be if life had been evolving for the last 3 billion years or so? You didn't. You really didn't. No-one could. And yet your argument depends on claiming that the first number you didn't calculate is smaller than the second number you didn't calculate. That's not much of an argument, is it? But if you think it is, then let me have a go. "If creationists were right, there'd be way more fish than there are." Does that convince you? No?
Over the weekend, I have discovered a blurb from none other than Thomas Nagel himself decrying the portrayal of Darwinism as gospel. Had I known about it earlier, I certainly would have drawn from such a celebrated name. Never mind his name, what's his argument? Is it any good? (Lots of people say no.) Has a philosopher telling scientists what can and can't be true ever been any good? (The only book of Nagel's I've read was on epistemology, and it was awful.) Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
MrHambre Member (Idle past 1421 days) Posts: 1495 From: Framingham, MA, USA Joined: |
Lamden writes:
A "blurb"? I don't know whether you mean Nagel decries that Darwinism is treated as gospel or that he decries that it's mischaracterized as gospel. Do you even know what you mean? Over the weekend, I have discovered a blurb from none other than Thomas Nagel himself decrying the portrayal of Darwinism as gospel. Had I known about it earlier, I certainly would have drawn from such a celebrated name. Although he remains an atheist for reasons that he admits amount to a convenience, his statement as a philosopher is notable. I assume you're referring to Nagel's much-maligned Mind and Cosmos, wherein Nagel critiqued materialism. I prefer Nagel's The View from Nowhere, his fascinating treatise on the illusion of objectivity. However, I felt that his ideas on materialism deserved more than the scorn that science cheerleaders heaped on them, and he certainly wasn't claiming that species don't evolve. So what is it that Nagel said that you find so compelling?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Very late. Very busy. Very long day and miserable weather that had made for a somewhat sleepless night.
C) An analogy was made to a centipede multiplying its feet through mutations. Without any intention to be disrespectful, it seems amateurish to simplify so drastically . So much is required for something like that to happen, I am not so sure it makes it any easier to understand. But I can understand why Dawkins would use it to promote his point. HOX genes, as has been mentioned and which you should learn about. Genes which encode for the development of entire body parts. And when mutations (obviously deleterious ones) are encouraged in fruit flies (a popular subject in genetics research since the turn of the 20th century because of their short generation times) you can get such things as legs growing where antennae should be, which could be explained, I believe, by a single mutation of a regulatory gene which switched on the wrong HOX gene at that location.
As Dwise points out in his webpage, the conclusions we make from our observations is a different story- perhaps we could call it philosophy. Could you please properly cite me on that? Tell us the web page and directly quote what you are referring to? And preferably do it with quote tags. At the bottom of this message is a peek button. If you click on it, you will see all the mark-up encodings, which we call "tags". If you ever want to know how to do something that you see in a message, use that peek button. Though I must warn you that sometimes we resort to HTML. As you should have read on my cre/ev homepage (http://http://cre-ev.dwise1.net/index.html), I have been repeatedly accused in "run-by fruitings" of saying things on my site which I have never said there. It is for that reason on my site that I ask that everyone please tell me exactly where they think I had said any such thing that they claim.
I hereby invoke that right of being told just what the hell you are talking about! Ye're just lucky I dinna don me kilt te say that. Sorry, ye got my Scottish up there! Please point out to everybody what exactly you are referring to and then we can all discuss it.
Over the weekend, I have discovered a blurb from none other than Thomas Nagel himself decrying the portrayal of Darwinism as gospel. My Mexican father-in-law had an expression: En su propria casa se conece. ("In his own home he is known.") So then just who exactly is this Thomas Nagel? What biological research has he conducted to make him an expert on Darwinism? Oh, he's a philosopher. OK, so what does that have to do with biology? Here is something that I had started to write in response to another message (HINT!!!!! use the peek button here to see how to do a quote, and URL links):
quote: Your first two "points" seemed to try to make use of "information theory" type of arguments. Perhaps you were being influenced by your ID readings? But back to Nagel (German for "nail"). The purely ID anti-evolutionists hold that position for some kind of philosophical reasons. Is Nagel one of those? Does that compromise in any way what he says? I have mentioned a local creationist, Bill Morgan. He often engages in a typical creationist snake-oil show called a "creation/evolution debate." He has posted videos from some of those debates onto YouTube -- with a physicist Phil Sommerfeld on 07 March 2009. Here are a couple of those that I tried to discuss with him (met with dead silence, of course):
quote: And,
quote: So then just who is this Thomas Nagel fellow? One of those fucking creationist lies? Or just maybe you can provide us with a righteous citation for that quote that you never even bothered to provide us with in the first place. A friend I work with is a Christian fundamentalist. I believe that there is mutual respect between us ... I certain do respect him and I assume that that respect is reciprocated. One day, I shared with him a fundamental problem I have with fundamentalists. They lie about everything. He was troubled by that perception. I sincerely hope he can work it out. Lamden, creationists and IDists alike will lie to you. That is in their nature. So what are we to do? Follow truth. Follow truthfulness. Follow honesty. That is what I argue for at my site, isn't it? Bill Morgan opposes my position. He says that he opposes it. He says that he has always opposed it and that he has disproven it. So what is my position? I have repeatedly asked Bill Morgan that and every single time he has remained completely silent. My position is the truth and truthfulness and honesty. And every single step of the way, Bill Morgan has opposed the truth, and truthfulness, and honesty. OK, Lamden, just what exactly is the nature of your Thomas Nagel quote? Did he actuallly say what he appears to have said? Or has he been misquoted?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
But what we don't see is retro-fitting of the improved designs across the board. Once the better octopus eye was invented, why wouldn't a designer rewrite the DNA of mammals to use it? After fancy electric headlights were designed for cars, we don't still see aircraft flying around with candles.
In nature we see certainly do see reuse of designs.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Lamden Junior Member (Idle past 2423 days) Posts: 25 From: Lakewood Joined: |
Could you please properly cite me on that? I honestly thought recalled something to that effect on your page, but as you dispute it, rather than finding what I was referring to and quibbling over the meaning, I defer to the authors intent and I have edited your name out of my post.
But back to Nagel (German for "nail"). Speaking of which, you are no doubt well aware that Wise is German for "white". And I am called Schwartz. And according to Michael Jackson, "It doesn't matter if you're black or white", so I guess we can still be freinds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2AitTPI5U0
So then just who exactly is this Thomas Nagel? What biological research has he conducted to make him an expert on Darwinism? Oh, he's a philosopher. OK, so what does that have to do with biology? My point was, I defer to you and all of your cronies as superior when it comes to knowledge of biology.But biology is all good and fine. The points I am interested in are the conclusions we make from biology. It is at this point that the biologist is to present the evidence, and bow away to those that know how to think. (of course, a biologist may happen to know how to think also, but not because she is a biologist). I quote Nagel not because I endorse him, but because he is an extremely well known and respected thinker, as well as being an atheist, and cannot be accused of creationisim etc. This reminds me of a debate about medical ethics in Canada once upon a time, where there was some sort of movement to leave the decision of medical homicide up to (loose quotation ) "the ones that are qualified to make the decision....doctors) (sic).While a doctor may be the one to diagnose someone as braindead, the decision what to do afterwards has nothing to do with medicine. Edited by Lamden, : No reason given. Edited by Admin, : Fix quote codes.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Bliyaal Member (Idle past 2396 days) Posts: 171 From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada Joined:
|
This reminds me of a debate about medical ethics in Canada once upon a time, where there was some sort of movement to leave the decision of medical homicide up to (loose quotation ) "the ones that are qualified to make the decision....doctors) (sic). While a doctor may be the one to diagnose someone as braindead, the decision what to do afterwards has nothing to do with medicine. False analogy. Braindead isn't evidence, it's a conclusion from the evidence just like evolution in the conclusion from the evidence. You may want to ask a philosopher to tell you what to do now that you know evolution is true but it won't change the fact that it happened and is still happening.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Lamden Junior Member (Idle past 2423 days) Posts: 25 From: Lakewood Joined: |
You are nit picking. Either you will bother to understand my point or not.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4444 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
|
Lamden writes: But biology is all good and fine. The points I am interested in are the conclusions we make from biology. It is at this point that the biologist is to present the evidence, and bow away to those that know how to think. (of course, a biologist may happen to know how to think also, but not because she is a biologist). You don't seem to understand much about science. Scientists (in this case biologists) are not just data gatherers. They actually do the whole enchilada; hypothesize, experiment, observe, conclude, repeat.
and bow away to those that know how to think. Are you kidding me? Part of the training of every scientist is how to think in a scientific way. This includes understanding the evidence and making conclusions about it.
Lamden writes: I quote Nagel not because I endorse him, but because he is an extremely well known and respected thinker, But you didn't actually quote him. You said, "Over the weekend, I have discovered a blurb from none other than Thomas Nagel himself decrying the portrayal of Darwinism as gospel." What did he actually say, and in what context, and where did he say it? And what does it mean and who is portraying Darwinism as gospel? The only people I ever hear portraying Darwin as gospel are creationists.
because he is an extremely well known and respected thinker He may be well known, but I had never heard of him. He is a respected thinker, by whom? Anyone can think about biology, why are his thoughts about biology of any importance? As a scientist and a biologist, I have run across very few people who characterize themselves as philosophers whose thoughts or opinions about science I respect, or about any subject for that matter. Most of the ones I have had experience with think they know about science but are actually failures at science and understanding science.What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Bliyaal Member (Idle past 2396 days) Posts: 171 From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada Joined: |
I understand it very well. You want biologists to stop thinking. It's not nitpicking.
Your point is based on a bad analogy. Philosophers aren't trained to analyse complex data from science, you can't ask them to conclude if evolution is true or not. What they can do for you is think about the consequences of that knowledge.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Hey, Lamden, about the quote codes, it isn't [q], it's [quote] or [qs]. Text using the [quote] code is set off by horizontal lines at the top and bottom of the text, while text using the [qs] code, which is an abbreviation for "quote shaded", is set off inside a slightly darker text box.
[quote] or [qs], not [q]. And of course, they're closed with [/quote] or [/qs]. If you click on the preview button after typing your message you'll see if you got the quote codes right. If you see no quoting going on in your rendered message, guess what? --Percy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Lamden Junior Member (Idle past 2423 days) Posts: 25 From: Lakewood Joined: |
I saw something was wrong, but didn't want to sift thru the site till I figured it out. Practice maketh perfect
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Lamden writes: I saw something was wrong, but didn't want to sift thru the site till I figured it out. Practice maketh perfect If you look to the left of the little text box where you're typing your message you'll see a help link for the dBCodes, or you can Click Here, or you can select Message Coding Help from the Essential Links menu item near the top of the page. --Percy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 312 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
But biology is all good and fine. The points I am interested in are the conclusions we make from biology. Then why ... why this thread? Which is all about whether biology is good and fine, and not at all about drawing conclusions from biology.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Lamden Junior Member (Idle past 2423 days) Posts: 25 From: Lakewood Joined: |
I am not here to convince you of any screwed up science, but to learn what science says.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I am not here to convince you of any screwed up science, but to learn what science says. Science says follow the evidence, discard all preconceptions ... and follow the scientific method:
You will note this is an endless do-loop iteration process; that science is never complete, but it pursues completeness; each refinement of knowledge and theory builds on the previous knowledge and brings us closer. Enjoy
ps to reiterate: type [qs]quotes are easy[/qs] and it becomes:
quotes are easy and you can type [qs=RAZD]quotes are easy[/qs] and it becomes:
RAZD writes: quotes are easy or type [quote]quotes are easy[/quote] and it becomes:
quote: also check out (help) links on any formatting questions when in the reply window. For other formatting tips see Posting TipsFor a quick overview see EvC Forum Primer If you have problems with replies see Report Discussion Problems Here 3.0 by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024