Catholics are making it up.

Coming from an Irish background, I do indeed know exactlty what it means. Popes rarely speak infallibly, but they always speak authoritively - a point I have already tried to make. The Catholic church believes that popes are gods represetatives on earth, a role handed down hand by hand directly from Peter. It hammers that message home in all its teachings to the laity. Adding the infalibilty clause legitimises the godliness and power of his proclamations and makes it easier to enforces them. In any case the pure concept of proclaiming a human infalible in ANY circumstances is a massive hubris. I have given several examples of the church changing its mind over what was once hard and fast fact as preached in its churches and schools. The fact that Vatican accademics have squabbled over some of them, is irrelevant. If you just take the limbo fantasy, it was hammered into Catholic parents that you must baptise your newborn quickly or risk it never finding everlasting happiness. That was definately a core belief - it was a heaven or not event for everyday Catholics. Sorry that is incomplete by a very long margin and would define anyone calling themselves a Christin. To be a Catholic you have to buy into the whole 'tradition' which is defined by the Catechism. An extraordinary work of fiction http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTMThe Catholic faith have a massive overlay of tradition that circle the basic beliefs that all Christians have; if you don't sign up for them you're excommunicated by default.

Don't confuse critiquing religious belief with knowing everything - or even anything - about existence. The two are entirely different. That can't be answered because although it's a declared fact that popes may speak infallibly nobody can agree when he does - which is the get out of jail clause. Most say that Mary's virginity and her ascendance to heaven is an infallible statement but they squirm about it. Mary though, is beyond doubt a big Catholic icon.I have no time to get into this now, but this gives a reasonable - ie critical - summary http://www.inplainsite.org/...bility_papal_infallibilit.htmlEdited by Tangle, : No reason given.

I can witness to the fact that limbo was a universal teaching in UK and Ireland and I would guess Continental Europe too. In fact I doubt that there was any church teaching something different anywhere until latterly when it was de facto dumped. If you know of anywhere but in the Vatican's corridors where this was different, I'd like to know of it.By complete chance there was an Irish woman talking about how she was treated by the church when her baby died soon after birth on the radio last night. The priest told her that her child could not be buried on sanctified ground. It was taken away and she doesn't know where to this day. There is a very big difference between bishops in the Vatican counting angels on pinheads and actual teachings and practices in towns and villages around the globe. The church HAS cast limbo away. It's the practical effects on the ground that matters, not these clever men in dresses thinking deeply about their supernatural fantasies. Before the change parents where told that their child was destined for everlating nowhere, that they would never meet up with him again and that he couldn't even share a graveyard with them. Now all that has been done away with. And the guys in purple know exactly the same as they did before the change of policy - ie nothing. Yes, handily they can have a policy for which they have no concievable knowledge, then abandon it with exactly the same lack of knowledge. Catholics are obliged to accept the 'traditions' of the church which can be changed as convenient.

No doubt some fundamentalist idiots are still trying to threaten their flock with it but there's very little point if the flock know that the pope has ruled it out. On the contrary, it suddenly changed on the 19th April 2007 with the publication of . On the 18th infacts where condemned to never see the blessed visage of the saviour, on the 20th, it's 'come on in, we're having a party'.Catholics are still making it up. It's Alice in Wonderland stuff

The 'facts' that you have explained completely totally ignore what was actually happening on the ground and the amazing volte face that the church has made over this issue.You have nothing to say about the woman who's child could not be buried in a Catholic graveyard because of this. You seem content to take the navel gazing and PR comms from the Vatican as legitimate argument - "nothing has changed". Nothing to see here, please move on.Nothing except that what was taught as routine is no longer policy and is now quietly being buried in the most obscure language possible. Limbo has been shunted into the long grass, another modern embarrassment to be quietly buried under a pretence that we never thought that way anyway. What cobblers, it was drummed into the heads of everyone that ever attended a Catholic school or went to a Catholic baptism, it's been around for centuries and we're supposed to now just pretend it never happened?It seems that you've swallowed the scam whole.

The Pope is currently running a conclave on the family. Women are, of course, excluded. A fact that made one disgruntled Catholic woman remark that the conclave is being held by 300 celebate men in dresses.These weird and befuddled creatures will shortly announce their views to the world on matters of which they have absolutely no knowledge - sex, contraception, gender disforia, adult same sex relationships and just, well, families. I just can't wait.Thinking about it though, they do, of course have substantial knowledge of same sex relationships.Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

God knows I'm not a defender of the corruption that is the Catholic church, but it doesn't claim that the pope is either the rightful ruler of the world or God on earth. They do claim that the pope is God's representative on earth though, handed down from Peter. But they also say that of all Catholic bishops and priests too acting locally - it's just that the Pope is boss.Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

If it's officially on the books, it should be very easy to find. The first rule of journalism is "consider your source." You are THE most unreliable source of information on this board. Your default position here is wrong; wrong about almost everything you've ever written about. So you'll have to assume that without backing up your claims me and probably everyone else here is not going to take them at face value.Having said that, even a stopped clock is right twice a day, so - stop me if you've heard this one before - so let's see your evidence; what do these official books say?

I see that our dear pope has exploited the PR opportunity of his family conclave by creating a couple of new saints - the parents of a saint he made earlier.I know I disagree that Catholics claim the pope is god on earth, but this kind of act would add some evidence to it.Their miracle was apparently in praying for a miracle. I reckon if I hung around a hospital for a week or so, laying on hands, I'd perform a few miracle cures too.And grown-ups actually believe this stuff.Page not found - Interaksyon

Without further research I'm prepared to concede every point you make. If everything you say is spot on true it's still bat-shit, goon-ball bonkers - if not more so. Which is MY point.But millions (billions?) believe this stuff as though it was actually true. And these puddled men will emerge shortly and declare on how they think families should behave and we're supposed to take them seriously? We can only hope that all their prayers provide them with a bit of pragmatic, human intuition so that they can abandon some of their more damaging and dangerous ideas. Fat chance.It utterly baffles me.

Right... best not let them try to influence anybody that matters then. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

If it was, I couldn't be more amazed. Each new absurdity takes me by surprise.It seems the majority have become anaesthetised to this utter tripe and just allow it to go on unremarked. It simply doesn't surprise when a man in a white dress and a pointy hat claims to have made a saint apparently.But it doesn't harm to point out how utterly bonkers this is occasionally does it? - particularly on a board dedicated to discussing such matters.

I take global warming and ISIS more seriously, but that's not to say that I can't also have concerns for other things. The Catholic church's often bad actions and ideas influence the lives of billions of people and need to be discussed in less deferential terms than seems to be happening at the moment.

Well no, I don't lump all religious beliefs together and call them equally crazy. Some are decidedly less crazy than others. Your kind of Protestantism is actually crazier than the RCC - the RCC at least have the sense not to insist on stuff being correct that is demonstrably and factually wrong and/or have bigotted and prejudicial views which would do great harm to our society if we let you. Other forms of Protestantism is almost benign, Quakers seem quite sane and Anglicanism might yet reform itself in a sensible fashion.

Do religions need to be flying planes into tall buildings these days to merit discussion and condemnation?Global child rape. Institutional cover-up. Homophobia. Discrimination against women. Increasing the spread of HIV in Africa by campaigning against condom use.....