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Author | Topic: Is it moral for God to punish us? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Greatest I am Member (Idle past 302 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
Is it moral for God to punish us?
Is it moral for an all-knowing and all-powerful God to set in motion a history that he designs and then condemns others for? We live in a history that God has set up and is fully responsible for. God, punishing man, who can do nothing but follow God’s plan and the nature God has put in us, is having innocent people suffer for the wrongs God himself has pre-destined and which cannot be altered. For example.God chose to have Jesus sacrificed. God, in his planning book would also have decided who would kill Jesus. There would be no way for that man to not kill Jesus or God’s plan would fall off the rails and in this case, we would not have a messiah or scapegoat to ride into heaven. Some will say we have free will but as shown in the example above, Jesus’ killer could not refrain from killing Jesus without derailing God’s plan. Further, to pre-destine any one action or condition within a history changes all other conditions and pre-destines all conditions within the plan. Think the butterfly effect. Having said the above and having shown that we have no free will if anything is pre-destined, I think it would be quite immoral for God to judge or punish us for being and doing exactly what he pre-ordained for us in his plan. We have no choice and to punish us is immoral. Do you agree? If not, why not? RegardsDL
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Admin Director Posts: 13038 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Thread copied here from the Is it moral for God to punish us? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4444 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Is it moral for God to punish us? Is it moral for an all-knowing and all-powerful God to set in motion a history that he designs and then condemns others for? So, you really want to have a serious discussion about the morals of an imaginary being? You must really be bored. A much more important topic would be, "Is Santa Claus really a jolly guy, or is he hiding a deep sadness?What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Tanypteryx writes:
He's clearly compensating for a childhood deprived of toys.
Is Santa Claus really a jolly guy, or is he hiding a deep sadness?
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
ringo writes: He's clearly compensating for a childhood deprived of toys. Nope, he's fat. That's proof he wasn't deprived of anything as a child.Therefore... just a jolly fellow. They nailed this one. Santa Claus is just a happy guy.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined:
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Greatest I am writes: Is it moral for God to punish us? Short answer: No.Long answer: Depends... according to who's morals? Do you agree? I agree with the point you're trying to make, yes. But I wouldn't mince the words quite in the same way.But, well, I don't think there are those who actually disagree with this... there will just be those who disagree that this point is what actually comes from their religion. Which sort of makes the question itself a bit moot.
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 302 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
Stile
According to your morals and mine so far. If anyone disagrees, we can then have a look at their morals and compare and debate as to who has the best set of morals. If no theist engages, I will assume that my argument is so tight that they concede and cannot argue for their God. RegardsDL
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 376 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined:
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Is it moral for God to punish us? Yes. If you can make sentient beings out of the dirt then you can do whatever you want with them.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
If anyone disagrees, we can then have a look at their morals and compare and debate as to who has the best set of morals. I'll go with what I have been taught.
Morality Statement from Christian website quote: Lets go with the basic rule of loving ones neighbor. Assuming that all have sinned, there is no excuse to point fingers at the sins of others. The only exception would be if one worked for the state and was enforcing legal morality. In which case the laws of the state would supersede the laws of the bible, no matter how interpreted.
Is it moral for an all-knowing and all-powerful God to set in motion a history that he designs and then condemns others for? As far as God punishing us, I believe that God, if God exists is a perfect judge of my intentions versus my actions and have no problem surrendering to His verdict.(Jesus being my defense attorney, of course!) Edited by Phat, : added jabberwockyChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
He tried to substitute food for love.
Nope, he's fat. That's proof he wasn't deprived of anything as a child.
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 302 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
ProtoTypical
If you create a being and his nature, what possible reason could you put to punishing a person for following the nature you put into him or her in the first place? That would be like saying that you yourself as the creator did not like what you created. It is analogous to a painter slashing his own painting. We would think a painter quite insane if he did such a thing so why do you not think God insane for punishing us for being exactly what he created us to be? RegardsDL
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 302 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
Phat
"God’s laws" These would include stoning unruly children and fornicators. Are you in favor of such laws? "I believe that God, if God exists is a perfect judge" God's first ruling as a judge is shown here. 1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. This is God as a judge demanding and later, it is thought, accepting a human sacrifice and the punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty as somehow being good justice. That sacrifice/bribe made God reverse the usual good morals of punishing the guilty and not the innocent. How can God be a perfect judge when he demands and accepts bribes or sacrifices to alter his verdicts? RegardsDL
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4444 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
We would think a painter quite insane if he did such a thing so why do you not think God insane for punishing us for being exactly what he created us to be? Why do you continue to go on and on about whether an imaginary entity is insane, or bad, or immoral? What possible difference does it make? It is exactly like wondering if Lex Luthar is insane; who cares, he is imaginary. What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings?What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Greatest I am writes:
It's pretty common for painters to paint over a painting they don't like and re-use the canvas. That's a pretty thorough destruction of their creation even if it isn't overtly violent.
It is analogous to a painter slashing his own painting.
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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If you create a being and his nature, what possible reason could you put to punishing a person for following the nature you put into him or her in the first place? Isn't this really a question about free will, determinism etc? Your post assumes a particular answer, namely that God specifies the nature of his creation at birth. Actually there are other possibilities. 1) God shapes behavior after creation, sometimes during punishment2) Man has free will, and gets punished for making bad choices Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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