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Author Topic:   Is it moral for God to punish us?
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 16 of 145 (770998)
10-16-2015 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Greatest I am
10-16-2015 12:47 PM


It is analogous to a painter slashing his own painting.
We would think a painter quite insane if he did such a thing so why do you not think God insane for punishing us for being exactly what he created us to be?
All of the great artists are a little insane. They see things that the rest of us do not.
Maybe a better analogy would be a AI machine that was created by an engineer. Say that he wants to pressure the machine into behaving a certain way and the best way to do that is to cause the machine some pain. So the engineer programs the machine to feel pain whenever it does some unacceptable thing.
What is immoral about that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Greatest I am, posted 10-16-2015 12:47 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Greatest I am, posted 10-16-2015 7:24 PM Dogmafood has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 17 of 145 (771000)
10-16-2015 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Tanypteryx
10-16-2015 1:21 PM


Tanypteryx
Why did you reply on a God question that needed a judgement call if you were not going to make one?
Never mind.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-16-2015 1:21 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 18 of 145 (771001)
10-16-2015 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by NoNukes
10-16-2015 3:20 PM


NoNukes
1. God's punishment is after death in hell and from there, there is only death, so shaping a behavior before killing the cured is rather a useless exercise.
2. You do not realize that man cannot help do what you call bad choices.
Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or it’s all man’s fault.
That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."
But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.
If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.
Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by NoNukes, posted 10-16-2015 3:20 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by NoNukes, posted 10-16-2015 8:35 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 19 of 145 (771002)
10-16-2015 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Dogmafood
10-16-2015 6:27 PM


ProtoTypical
A poor analogy.
If the machine knows that it is doing an unacceptable thing that will bring it punishment, then it will not do it. Unless it has no choice of course and then that would be the programmers/God's fault and not the machines.
The actions of people are motivated by pleasure seeking. Only those we think are not quite mentally well will do what they know will hurt them. S & M and such.
Please read what I put in the post above on free will.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Dogmafood, posted 10-16-2015 6:27 PM Dogmafood has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by NoNukes, posted 10-16-2015 8:37 PM Greatest I am has not replied
 Message 29 by Pressie, posted 10-19-2015 6:34 AM Greatest I am has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 145 (771004)
10-16-2015 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Greatest I am
10-16-2015 7:18 PM


2. You do not realize that man cannot help do what you call bad choices.
What is it that I call bad choices?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Greatest I am, posted 10-16-2015 7:18 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Greatest I am, posted 10-16-2015 9:12 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 145 (771005)
10-16-2015 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Greatest I am
10-16-2015 7:24 PM


The actions of people are motivated by pleasure seeking.
Really? Do you believe this motivation describes your own behavior? Do you do everything that there is a motivation to do?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Greatest I am, posted 10-16-2015 7:24 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 22 of 145 (771008)
10-16-2015 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by NoNukes
10-16-2015 8:35 PM


NoNukes
Re your bad choices question.
I am used to chatting with Christians on this and by bad choices, I was speaking of sin.
We cannot help but sin and I applied that to what you called poor choices.
-----------
To your other post on pleasure seeking.
Yes, I do things that tend to please me somehow and not hurt me.
No. I do not do all that I am motivated to do as I cannot afford it all.
Is that not what you do or do you do things that you think will harm you.
Regards
DL
Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by NoNukes, posted 10-16-2015 8:35 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by NoNukes, posted 10-16-2015 9:25 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 145 (771010)
10-16-2015 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Greatest I am
10-16-2015 9:12 PM


I am used to chatting with Christians on this and by bad choices, I was speaking of sin.
So you cannot help but commit adultery or to steal your neighbors ox?
No. I do not do all that I am motivated to do as I cannot afford it all.
I personally make choices on a daily basis. I don't do everything that I can afford to do, and I am capable of doing things that inconvenience me but help others. I think people are more complex than you give them credit for.
In any event, the assumptions you make here are too simple and uninteresting. I leave you to argue with ringo and others.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Greatest I am, posted 10-16-2015 9:12 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by ringo, posted 10-17-2015 12:01 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 25 by Greatest I am, posted 10-17-2015 12:14 PM NoNukes has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 24 of 145 (771028)
10-17-2015 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by NoNukes
10-16-2015 9:25 PM


NoNukes writes:
So you cannot help but commit adultery or to steal your neighbors ox?
It's a really nice ox.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by NoNukes, posted 10-16-2015 9:25 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 25 of 145 (771031)
10-17-2015 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by NoNukes
10-16-2015 9:25 PM


NoNukes
I was looking at sin as a concept and in total and not individual ones as you have chosen to do.
I think that to be the complex way but think as you like.
BTW, all altruistic acts have self-serving aspect. Scratch a back in order to have the same done to you type of thing.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by NoNukes, posted 10-16-2015 9:25 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by NoNukes, posted 10-17-2015 9:39 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 145 (771048)
10-17-2015 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Greatest I am
10-17-2015 12:14 PM


Scratch a back in order to have the same done to you type of thing.
That would not be altruism at all. Tell me what the 'scratch a back' reasoning is behind anonymous giving if you want to insist on this kind of tit for tat. People are more complex than you give them credit for here. That includes the fact that they are not stuck in some kind of nature beyond their ability to decide regardless of inherited predisposition. If you want to narrow your model down to discuss humans predestined and unavoidably and therefore unsuitable for punishment, let me suggest that under man's law we do punish people for the bad things they do. Is it moral that your parents disciplined you?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Greatest I am, posted 10-17-2015 12:14 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Greatest I am, posted 10-18-2015 9:46 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 27 of 145 (771051)
10-18-2015 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by NoNukes
10-17-2015 9:39 PM


NoNukes
True that reciprocity is not described the same way as altruism. I did not say it was. I said reciprocity was a component of altruism.
You keep saying how complicated people are as an argument against what I said without showing the complication you are using to (refute).
A neat trick but hardly a refutation.
As to parents punishing or disciplining. They are here, God is not, so you are comparing apples to oranges.
Parents are not absentee deadbeat dads.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by NoNukes, posted 10-17-2015 9:39 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by NoNukes, posted 10-18-2015 1:20 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 145 (771054)
10-18-2015 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Greatest I am
10-18-2015 9:46 AM


True that reciprocity is not described the same way as altruism. I did not say it was. I said reciprocity was a component of altruism.
Right, and I said that reciprocity is not a component of true altruism. I provided an example of altruism in which there was no reciprocity.
ou keep saying how complicated people are as an argument against what I said without showing the complication you are using
That's a lie. I provided an example of the complications that your simple thread ignores.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Greatest I am, posted 10-18-2015 9:46 AM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 29 of 145 (771059)
10-19-2015 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Greatest I am
10-16-2015 7:24 PM


Greatest I am writes:
The actions of people are motivated by pleasure seeking.
Not mine. At the moment my actions are motivated on having the most comfie life I can get till I die in around 40 years (hopefully) time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Greatest I am, posted 10-16-2015 7:24 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Greatest I am, posted 10-19-2015 12:42 PM Pressie has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 30 of 145 (771068)
10-19-2015 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Pressie
10-19-2015 6:34 AM


Pressie
??
Is "having the most comfie life" a pleasure, --- and is that not you pleasure seeking which is what I said motivates us?
Regards
DL
Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Pressie, posted 10-19-2015 6:34 AM Pressie has not replied

  
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