Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 85 (8950 total)
32 online now:
DrJones*, kjsimons, nwr, Theodoric (4 members, 28 visitors)
Newest Member: Mikee
Post Volume: Total: 867,268 Year: 22,304/19,786 Month: 867/1,834 Week: 367/500 Day: 66/64 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   A New Run at the End of Evolution by Genetic Processes Argument
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7223
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 151 of 259 (771036)
10-17-2015 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Faith
10-17-2015 3:45 PM


Re: Adding alleles prevents evolution from occurring
Faith writes:

Well, for that to happen alleles have to be lost for other phenotypes.

Can you explain how the whale phenotype includes the genes able to make a leg every now and then?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Faith, posted 10-17-2015 3:45 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20332
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 152 of 259 (771037)
10-17-2015 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Faith
10-17-2015 3:45 PM


bump ...
Obviously you have no idea what my argument is.

So how about an answer to Understanding Faith's argument, Message 128?

Please make any corrections if I have it wrong.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Faith, posted 10-17-2015 3:45 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33914
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 153 of 259 (771038)
10-17-2015 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by RAZD
10-16-2015 8:45 PM


Re: Misconceptions on evolution
This was the post I had to interrupt for the Internet Technician. I'll get the finished version up soon

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by RAZD, posted 10-16-2015 8:45 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by RAZD, posted 10-17-2015 5:08 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 157 by dwise1, posted 10-17-2015 5:17 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 158 by Admin, posted 10-17-2015 5:18 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12653
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 154 of 259 (771039)
10-17-2015 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Faith
10-17-2015 10:58 AM


Faith Suspended 48 Hours
Faith writes:

Apparently I missed the "challenge." I don't get it. The whole thing hits me as a series of incomprehensible accusations of this or that fallacy or error, based on some preoccupations of HBD's own that have nothing to do with what I've been arguing.

I don't know if you're serious or playing games or feigning innocence or ignorance or what. You keep repeating the same pattern of going off the rails, as you did a couple days ago, then getting back on course, then going off the rails again. I told you just two days ago over at Report Discussion Problems Here 4.0 that you could resume discussion as soon as you adopted a willingness to actually discuss, so you resumed discussion presumably because you had adopted an attitude of willingness to discuss, and yet here you are already accusing people of accusing you of things and jousting with the moderator. I see little likelihood of further interaction with this moderator helping at all, and I can't allow you to continue in this unconstructive way, so I think all I can do is give you a little time to think about it. See you in a couple days.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Faith, posted 10-17-2015 10:58 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20332
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 155 of 259 (771040)
10-17-2015 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Faith
10-17-2015 4:55 PM


Re: Misconceptions on evolution
HAVE AN INTERNET TECHNICIAN HERE, HAVE TO POST THIS AND COME BACK TO FINISH IT>

Okay, it needs a lot of cleanup, so you might want to start over when you can. In particular I think you need to reconsider your initial reaction\response to my question regarding differentiation between mutations and rare alleles:

It wouldn't of course. To ask such a silly question does not bode well for this post.

Part of your thesis is that the rare alleles rise to dominate the split isolated population, and if there is no way that rare alleles are differentiated from mutation alleles, then those mutation alleles can just as easily rise to dominate the split isolated population.

So calling the question silly does not answer why this would not be a severe problem for your argument. Instead it is conflict avoidance behavior of the kind (it seems to me) Percy wants to see exchanged for one that treats the question seriously and respond to it with a reasoned answer.

However, be that as it may, I am much more interested in a response to Understanding Faith's argument, - Message 128 at this point. Because if we can establish that your argument is actually understood, then we can discuss intelligently why there are problems with it, without being accused of not understanding the argument.

It seems premature to me for you to be responding to my later posts without answering that one.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : ..

Edited by RAZD, : ..


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Faith, posted 10-17-2015 4:55 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12653
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 156 of 259 (771041)
10-17-2015 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by PaulK
10-17-2015 4:22 PM


Re: Some "intelligent" questions
As I requested of Faith, please keep the focus on the topic and on the problems you see in the arguments from the other side. Let the moderator take care of other things.

Edited by Admin, : Fix author.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by PaulK, posted 10-17-2015 4:22 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3868
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 157 of 259 (771042)
10-17-2015 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Faith
10-17-2015 4:55 PM


Re: Misconceptions on evolution
Faith, you may want to review this last message you posted. Especially after this line:

HAVE AN INTERNET TECHNICIAN HERE, HAVE TO POST THIS AND COME BACK TO FINISH IT>

Shortly after that point, you appears that you are arguing for macroevolution. And you end it by rediscovering :

In other words the microevolutionary processes cause macroevolution to occur over a span of generations.

Your formatting and placement of the qs tags may have gotten messed up.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Faith, posted 10-17-2015 4:55 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12653
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 158 of 259 (771043)
10-17-2015 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Faith
10-17-2015 4:55 PM


Re: Misconceptions on evolution
Faith writes:

Curiously, I don't think you have thought this through.

I've read no further than this first sentence of your post, and I don't yet know if you're going to carry on in this vein, but it is disturbingly close to your earlier accusations that people just aren't thinking about your ideas deeply enough, and that you'll have nothing further to say. I want to nip this in the bud now. If that's the direction you're going, please stop now.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Faith, posted 10-17-2015 4:55 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by RAZD, posted 10-17-2015 5:45 PM Admin has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20332
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 159 of 259 (771044)
10-17-2015 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Admin
10-17-2015 5:18 PM


Cut some slack folks
I've read no further than this first sentence of your post, ...

This is actually what I said, not Faith. Apparently she pasted in my post and was adding her comments when the INTERNET TECNICIAN came.

This also explains what dwise1 noted in Message 157.

So please cut her some slack, let Faith return with her technician fixed internet and after the 48 hr suspension (can you make it 24? I'd really like an answer to Message 128), and let her clean up that post (or delete it and replace it).

Thanks.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Admin, posted 10-17-2015 5:18 PM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Admin, posted 10-17-2015 7:20 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12653
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.0


(2)
Message 160 of 259 (771046)
10-17-2015 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by RAZD
10-17-2015 5:45 PM


Re: Cut some slack folks
You're right, they were your words, but Faith was already, as I said, beginning to go off the rails again. I think Faith could use the time away to fix her Internet and decide if she's going to try to work together toward a successful discussion.

AbE: If people want to discuss with Faith maybe her blog would be a better place.

Edited by Admin, : AbE.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by RAZD, posted 10-17-2015 5:45 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Coyote, posted 10-17-2015 8:32 PM Admin has acknowledged this reply

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 449 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 161 of 259 (771047)
10-17-2015 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Admin
10-17-2015 7:20 PM


Re: Cut some slack folks
AbE: If people want to discuss with Faith maybe her blog would be a better place.

We'd probably be banned after a couple of posts over there.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Admin, posted 10-17-2015 7:20 PM Admin has acknowledged this reply

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 75 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(3)
Message 162 of 259 (771049)
10-17-2015 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Faith
10-17-2015 12:05 AM


Re: Some "intelligent" questions
You seem to be in a mood to find things to accuse me of.

I am not trying to accuse you of anything. I assume that you are trying to present your views in good faith and I don't suspect any "skulduggery." But your position is faulty; it doesn't match up with the reality that we work with every day. What you are doing is focusing on a few general observations and extrapolating those observations to the whole ToE despite there being observations that invalidate your conclusions. If you want us to concede that evolution caused a reduction in genetic diversity in cheetahs, elephant seals and domestic breeding populations, I think we already have. I said it a long time ago that yes, it's true, but trivially true. PaulK has said it, and I believe Dr. A, RAZD and Percy have agreed as well; it's true, but trivially true. It is not the whole story.

My examples and questions were meant to challenge the idea that evolution REQUIRES a reduction in genetic diversity and that as organisms evolve they will eventually run out of genetic diversity. Groups of organisms that have undergone multiple speciation (or sub-speciation, whatever) events have NOT run out of diversity. That challenges the idea that evolution REQUIRES a loss in diversity.

it reminds me that the loss of genetic diversity through processes of evolution is definitely a conclusion I came to from my own encounters with evolutionist concepts.

No. You may have reached a conclusion based on your study but when you apply it to a broader scope, like addressing the ToE, it becomes a premise. After you have formed your premise then you need to form the hypothesis such as: If evolution reduces genetic diversity then we should observe groups that have undergone multiple speciation events to have significantly reduced genetic diversity. Now before you can draw a conclusion about your premise, you need to run tests and/or examine the data based on your hypothesis.

What data do you have on, for example, dogs? Do you have any genetic diversity information on dogs at all? Can you demonstrate that any breeds have less genetic diversity than the breeds they were derived from?

If no, then you cannot make a conclusion as to whether your premise is true or not.

from Message 146

Apparently I missed the "challenge." I don't get it. The whole thing hits me as a series of incomprehensible accusations of this or that fallacy or error, based on some preoccupations of HBD's own that have nothing to do with what I've been arguing.

Incomprehensible?? You have actually been studying this issue longer than I have. How is anything I said or asked incomprehensible?

My questions DO have everything to do with what you are arguing. You claim that your ideas completely discredit the ToE, and yet you only want to focus on a few unique cases where the species have low genetic variability. Certainly not enough to convince me to change the direction of my research. Nor do I see that your premise has any bearing on the ToE in any significant way. Certainly doesn't discredit it; doesn't really even challenge it.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Faith, posted 10-17-2015 12:05 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Faith, posted 10-19-2015 5:32 PM herebedragons has responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12653
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 163 of 259 (771050)
10-18-2015 8:54 AM


Scientists Find More Evidence for Ear Evolution
Message 1 briefly alluded to the evolution of the mammalian ear from reptiles, so it's worth mentioning here in this thread about genetic processes that scientists recently confirmed that the reptilian and mammalian ears evolved independently. A brief blurb in the July issue of Scientific American describes it like this:

quote:
Evolutionary biologists have long wondered why the eardrum—the membrane that relays sound waves to the inner ear—looks in humans and other mammals remarkably like the one in reptiles and birds. Did the membrane and therefore the ability to hear in these groups evolve from a common ancestor? Or did the auditory systems evolve independently to perform the same function, a phenomenon called convergent evolution? A recent set of experiments performed at the University of Tokyo and the RIKEN Evolutionary Morphology Laboratory in Japan resolves the issue.

When the scientists genetically inhibited lower jaw development in both fetal mice and chickens, the mice formed neither eardrums nor ear canals. In contrast, the birds grew two upper jaws, from which two sets of eardrums and ear canals sprouted. The results, published in Nature Communications, confirm that the middle ear grows out of the lower jaw in mammals but emerges from the upper jaw in birds—all supporting the hypothesis that the similar anatomy evolved independently in mammals and in reptiles and birds. (Scientific American is part of Springer Nature.) Fossils of auditory bones had supported this conclusion as well, but eardrums do not fossilize and so could not be examined directly.


I did find this description somewhat confusing, as sometimes it talks about just the eardrum, sometimes also the ear canal, and other times the entire middle ear. If anybody wants to look into this and clarify a bit it would probably be appreciated.

But the main point is that it has now been confirmed genetically that the mammalian ear evolved independently from other non-ear reptile structures and not from the reptile ear itself. I wonder if they know what happened to the original reptile ears as our mammalian antecedents evolved.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by RAZD, posted 10-18-2015 10:11 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply
 Message 165 by NoNukes, posted 10-19-2015 1:47 PM Admin has acknowledged this reply
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 10-19-2015 6:00 PM Admin has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20332
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 164 of 259 (771052)
10-18-2015 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Admin
10-18-2015 8:54 AM


Re: Scientists Find More Evidence for Ear Evolution
Link?

My first impression is one of confusion, possibly caused by words used.

The evolution of the mammal ear is not, strictly speaking, from reptile ears but from common ancestors of mammals and reptiles -- with the "non-mammalian amniote" or "early synapsid" denotation intended for an intermediate between the common ancestor with reptiles and the beginning of the mammal ear evolution. These early amniote synapsids still had the ancestral ear linked bone structure.

quote:
Synapsids (Greek, 'fused arch'), synonymous with theropsids (Greek, 'beast-face'), are a group of animals that includes mammals and every animal more closely related to mammals than to other living amniotes. ... Synapsids evolved from basal amniotes and are one of the two major groups of the later amniotes; the other is the sauropsids, a group that includes modern reptiles and birds. ...

So the ancestors of mammals (synapsids) diverged from the ancestors of (true?) reptiles (sauropsids) before ears evolved from the jaw-bone linked structure in either clade.

As such I would find it surprising if the ear evolution were the same.

So the confusion would appear to come from calling the common ancestors "reptiles" (as opposed to "reptile-like" or properly as "amniote") ... hence the usage of "non-mamalian amniote" above and in previous discussions, something I will now be even more careful about.

This divergent evolution of the ear is also good evidence of not using the same "design" over, even when all the parts are there, readily available, and fully functional.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : clrty


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Admin, posted 10-18-2015 8:54 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Faith, posted 10-19-2015 6:01 PM RAZD has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 165 of 259 (771075)
10-19-2015 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Admin
10-18-2015 8:54 AM


Re: Scientists Find More Evidence for Ear Evolution
quote:
When the scientists genetically inhibited lower jaw development in both fetal mice and chickens, the mice formed neither eardrums nor ear canals. In contrast, the birds grew two upper jaws, from which two sets of eardrums and ear canals sprouted. The results, published in Nature Communications, confirm that the middle ear grows out of the lower jaw in mammals but emerges from the upper jaw in birds

Most likely, this stuff is just over my head, but I don't understand why this experiment conclusive decides the issue. I'd appreciate any explanation/insight you or one of the life science experts might have.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Admin, posted 10-18-2015 8:54 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019