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Author | Topic: Catholics are making it up. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined:
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You are obviously ignorant of the whole range of doctrines of the RCC As are you. You made the claims, they have been challenged. How do you propose we resolve the stalemate? My suggestion is that the person making the specific and positive claim (ie., you) should provide evidence to support your position. After all, my only option is to present the whole range of doctrines of the RCC to you and say 'there you go, its not there' At which point you'll agree or say - what about the bit where it says '...'. And then we'd be in the same position as if you had provided the evidence for your claims in the first place.
They will call their own doctrines blasphemous if necessary at any given time, then weasel around to defending them later. Yeah, that's common to all religions I think.
However, it's all apparent anyway if you know what it all really means. Please reveal where I can learn this occult knowledge.
For instance, "vicar of Christ" literally means "substitute for Christ" which is as good as calling him the Antichrist by biblical standards. First of all - 'for' and 'of' are not substitutable. A literal translation in your words with be 'substitute of Christ'. Which doesn't make sense. Then again, literal translations can be pretty stupid - just ask Google. Substitute is a good word, but it's not quite right. For a start, substitute is also a Latin word. Vicarius and substitutus are similar words, but not perfect synonyms. You've taken the meaning of substitute 'to replace' and gone to a crazy place with it including substituting two words entirely without reason to bolster your point. Vicarious is different. For instance, one might assign a slave to do everything another slave commands them. This would make a slave's slave. Not a replacement slave. There are still two slaves. This would not be servus substitutus (or whatever the right Latin would be) it would be servus vicarius. Are you a governor with too many duties? Have you tried appointing a vicarius praetoris or 'deputy governor / vice-president'. Maybe you are a deity who wants a way to communicate information to his Creation without going through the fuss of incarnating or appearing in clouds etc? Why not appoint a Vicarius Filii Dei or Representative for the Son of God. Don't know if that's the right phrase? Try Vicarius Christi! Or Representative of Christ. Because that's how the word actually gets used by the Latin people that came up with this stuff, rather than how someone with a translation dictionary might do it. It's a substitute only in the sense that 'instead of talking to the governor or the usual slave or god....you are talking to me acting on the behalf in their place'. Not in the sense of 'I am substituting rice for wheat in my diet and Madden for Tebow in my time travel fantasy league'. I haven't even remotely changed your mind have I? Vicar of Christ - WikipediaVicarius - Wikipedia vicarius - Wiktionary Vicarius Filii Dei - Wikipedia
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Golly gee, Tangle, don't you know the Pope is the rightful ruler of this world, according to RCC official doctrine? He's "God on earth," don't you know? God knows I'm not a defender of the corruption that is the Catholic church, but it doesn't claim that the pope is either the rightful ruler of the world or God on earth. They do claim that the pope is God's representative on earth though, handed down from Peter. But they also say that of all Catholic bishops and priests too acting locally - it's just that the Pope is boss. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
It claims exactly what I said, it's officially on the books. Just because I don't have the time or I'm not good at locating the source of my information* doesn't mean I'm wrong about it. You could consider I'm right because I have no reason to make it up but of course you won't. Even what you admit they say pretty much says the same thing, and it ought to be recognized to be anything but Christian even to have a "representative of God on earth" or a "boss" of Christ's people who is not Christ himself.
*It may be in John Dowling's History of Romanism which is among a dozen books on Romanism I have stacked on my kitchen table so I'll check later. Or actually I think Dowling may be online. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Faith writes: It claims exactly what I said, it's officially on the books. If it's officially on the books, it should be very easy to find.
Just because I don't have the time or I'm not good at locating the of my information* doesn't mean I'm wrong about it. The first rule of journalism is "consider your source." You are THE most unreliable source of information on this board. Your default position here is wrong; wrong about almost everything you've ever written about. So you'll have to assume that without backing up your claims me and probably everyone else here is not going to take them at face value. Having said that, even a stopped clock is right twice a day, so - stop me if you've heard this one before - so let's see your evidence; what do these official books say?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined:
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It claims exactly what I said, it's officially on the books. Actually it is as I say: it is officially not on the books.
Just because I don't have the time or I'm not good at locating the source of my information* doesn't mean I'm wrong about it. Nullius in verba.
You could consider I'm right because I have no reason to make it up but of course you won't. You have every reason to make it up. You hate Catholicism and you want others to hate it too. You spread that Tares and Wheat nonsense which was full of obvious lies - so I think my experience is persuasive that you seem highly motivated to make stuff up, and are quite adept at misremembering or exaggerating based on your own prejudices and half remembered things you read somewhere once.
Even what you admit they say pretty much says the same thing, and it ought to be recognized to be anything but Christian even to have a "representative of God on earth" I don't see why it isn't Christian. The religion has examples within itself of people being the conduit for the word of God. Like Moses. God spoke to Moses, Moses spoke to Abram and Abram spoke to the people. Vicariousness was all over the religion from the outset!
or a "boss" of Christ's people who is not Christ himself. He is 'boss' of Catholic bishops in the sense that he is the top of a hierarchical structure. If this is not Christian then I'd like to point you back at your old pal James I. Here is an approximation of his Christian church, and the Church of England today: God -> Crown -> Monarch -> Archbishop of Canterbury -> Other Archbishops -> Bishops / Suffragens -> Dean / subdean -> Rector / Vicar -> Deacons / Curates A hierarchy with an absolute boss. I expect that although the American churches typically don't recognize a monarch they would still, assuming there is more than one church, have somebody assuming a leadership role. Someone to make final decisions on disciplinary matters, disputes, budget expenditure, broad direction of the churches policies and articles of faith. A boss. I'd be surprised if your church was immune to such a thing. So I can't see how it could be construed by you as being in some way unChristian. It's obviously not something unique to churches. All organisations have a tendency towards certain types of hierarchy. It's kind a universal human way of organising and cooperating.
*It may be in John Dowling's History of Romanism which is among a dozen books on Romanism I have stacked on my kitchen table so I'll check later. Or actually I think Dowling may be online. Yes, I believe it is. However, it is not official Catholic Dogma. It is instead a 19th Century attack on Catholicism by a baptist minister. If that's where you read it - it does not constitute sufficient evidence for your case. Anybody can write anything they like, after all the book you are referencing was published about a decade before On the Origin of Species. We both think one of these books has dubious merit, so just because someone got it published doesn't mean anything right? What you need to do is look at Catholic texts and pronouncements, especially papal ones. If the beliefs you believe are part of the dogma exist 'officially on the books' you should look to the official books of the religion. Not relatively obscure Victorian texts written by a leader of a rival religious sect.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
I see that our dear pope has exploited the PR opportunity of his family conclave by creating a couple of new saints - the parents of a saint he made earlier.
I know I disagree that Catholics claim the pope is god on earth, but this kind of act would add some evidence to it. Their miracle was apparently in praying for a miracle.
On March 18, Francis said the pair had performed a miracle by curing a Spanish baby called Carmen. Born prematurely and risking a brain hemorrhage, her parents prayed for the Martins' intercession and the infant survived. I reckon if I hung around a hospital for a week or so, laying on hands, I'd perform a few miracle cures too. And grown-ups actually believe this stuff. Page not found - InteraksyonJe suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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vimesey Member Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined: |
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Edited by vimesey, : Deleted - got the dramatis personae wrong.Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2697 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, Tangle.
Tangle writes: I see that our dear pope has exploited the PR opportunity of his family conclave by creating a couple of new saints - the parents of a saint he made earlier. I don't know anything about the history here, but according to your article, it was a different pope (Pius XI, back in 1925) who made the daughter a saint.
Tangle writes: Their miracle was apparently in praying for a miracle. Are you sure you read that right? The parents prayed, the Martins (allegedly) interceded, the children got better, and the Martins were made saints.
Tangle writes: I reckon if I hung around a hospital for a week or so, laying on hands, I'd perform a few miracle cures too. Perhaps. But, could you do it over 100 years after your death? That's what the Martins are alleged to have done.-Blue Jay, Ph.D.* *Yeah, it's real Darwin loves you.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Without further research I'm prepared to concede every point you make. If everything you say is spot on true it's still bat-shit, goon-ball bonkers - if not more so. Which is MY point.
But millions (billions?) believe this stuff as though it was actually true. And these puddled men will emerge shortly and declare on how they think families should behave and we're supposed to take them seriously? We can only hope that all their prayers provide them with a bit of pragmatic, human intuition so that they can abandon some of their more damaging and dangerous ideas. Fat chance. It utterly baffles me.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
No, "we" aren't supposed to take them seriously. Believers are supposed to take them seriously (one brand of believers, anyway). "We" are not required to get "our" knickers in a twist about it.
... and we're supposed to take them seriously?
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DrJones* Member Posts: 2284 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
But millions (billions?) believe this stuff as though it was actually true. Is this your first time encountering the phenomena known as "religion"?It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds soon I discovered that this rock thing was true Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world And so there was only one thing I could do Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On *not an actual doctor
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Ringo writes: No, "we" aren't supposed to take them seriously. Believers are supposed to take them seriously (one brand of believers, anyway). Right... best not let them try to influence anybody that matters then.
Pope Francis electrifies Congress with speech laying out bold vision for US Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Dr Jones writes: Is this your first time encountering the phenomena known as "religion"? If it was, I couldn't be more amazed. Each new absurdity takes me by surprise. It seems the majority have become anaesthetised to this utter tripe and just allow it to go on unremarked. It simply doesn't surprise when a man in a white dress and a pointy hat claims to have made a saint apparently. But it doesn't harm to point out how utterly bonkers this is occasionally does it? - particularly on a board dedicated to discussing such matters.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
Millions of people vote for conservatives. That has much more serious consequences and I take it much more seriously.
Right... best not let them try to influence anybody that matters then.
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2697 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, Tangle.
Tangle writes: If everything you say is spot on true it's still bat-shit, goon-ball bonkers - if not more so. Which is MY point. Having been raised without the slightest inkling of how Catholicism works, the whole idea of saints seems weird to me. But, I wouldn't go so far as to call it "crazy": I think there's a least a modicum of internal consistency to the story you shared. But, I have to agree with you about the notion of "miracles." There's no end of people out there claiming that God healed their child when the doctors said there was no chance. To me, the most reasonable conclusion is that some error was made in either assessing, presenting or interpreting what the child's "chances" were. All the "miracle" healing stories from the past involve people being suddenly raised to perfect health from their deathbeds: but nowadays, most medical miracles seem to involve a few days of bed rest with an IV drip in addition to the prayers of loved ones. I remember being taught about alleged miracles that happened in the early parts of Mormon history, such as the miracle of the gulls. As a kid, I was taught that in 1848 (the Mormons' first year in Utah), a huge flock of gulls miraculously appeared out of nowhere to save the Mormons' first harvest from swarms of crickets, and everyone praised God for His greatness. Of course, despite being very prolific diary-writers, the early Mormons seem to have meticulously avoided leaving any firsthand attestations of the alleged miracle, preferring to instead let it be gradually mythologized over the pulpit a few decades later.-Blue Jay, Ph.D.* *Yeah, it's real Darwin loves you.
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