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Author Topic:   Should countries outlaw the hijab, niqab and burka?
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 76 of 372 (771548)
10-27-2015 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Blue Jay
10-26-2015 10:21 AM


Re: Pajama Bottoms at the bottom of the style barrel
Blue Jay
The ban does work.
The places in the world that have a burqa ban Quartz
So that feeling you wanted us to ignore is available to us.
Do not fear doing the right thing.
I know that some women will be negatively effected but they are few as compared to those whose husbands get the message that in Canada, we do not own our wives and daughters.
If those few that are offended cannot see that they are helping free their sisters, then they are just showing how immoral their religion has made them.
Regards
DL
Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.
Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Blue Jay, posted 10-26-2015 10:21 AM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Blue Jay, posted 10-27-2015 10:55 AM Greatest I am has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 77 of 372 (771550)
10-27-2015 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by ringo
10-26-2015 12:11 PM



This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by ringo, posted 10-26-2015 12:11 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 10-27-2015 11:44 AM Greatest I am has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 78 of 372 (771551)
10-27-2015 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by ringo
10-26-2015 12:17 PM


ringo
What is more important to you?
Protecting the culture of female oppression and ownership by men or the Canadian culture of freedom for women from ownership of men?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by ringo, posted 10-26-2015 12:17 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by ringo, posted 10-27-2015 11:45 AM Greatest I am has not replied

Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 79 of 372 (771569)
10-27-2015 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Greatest I am
10-27-2015 8:44 AM


Re: Pajama Bottoms at the bottom of the style barrel
Hi, GIA.
GIA writes:
The ban does work.
Page not found Quartz
That is a list of countries that have passed laws about wearing burqas.
It is not an evaluation of how well burqa bans "work."
Do you have statistics demonstrating that Muslim women are better off now that France and Belgium have banned burqas?
GIA writes:
So that feeling you wanted us to ignore is available to us.
That feeling should never be your goal, GIA: feelings can be very easily manipulated and misdirected. We should instead be focusing on producing some data about the actual effects of your proposed action.
GIA writes:
Do not fear doing the right thing.
Why do you insist on vilifying me?
I am not opposed to "doing the right thing": I am in disagreement with you over what "the right thing" is.
Please stop conflating these two things.

-Blue Jay, Ph.D.*
*Yeah, it's real
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Greatest I am, posted 10-27-2015 8:44 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Greatest I am, posted 10-27-2015 11:24 AM Blue Jay has replied
 Message 84 by Omnivorous, posted 10-27-2015 5:45 PM Blue Jay has not replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 80 of 372 (771575)
10-27-2015 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Blue Jay
10-27-2015 10:55 AM


Re: Pajama Bottoms at the bottom of the style barrel
Blue Jay
"Do you have statistics demonstrating that Muslim women are better off now that France and Belgium have banned burqas?"
I will have the moment a fire hits any building in those countries and girls do not die because they were forced to wear that apparel.
I do have statistical information that all the citizens of both France and Belgium are better off in the sense that the majority ruled that the apparel in question was not desired by the majority.
That rule of law serves all the Muslims in those communities as it protects the predominant culture and their desires.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Blue Jay, posted 10-27-2015 10:55 AM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Blue Jay, posted 10-27-2015 2:38 PM Greatest I am has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 81 of 372 (771577)
10-27-2015 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Greatest I am
10-27-2015 8:51 AM


I think the election is a more credible poll than yours.
Also interesting in your link:
quote:
But one woman who chose to wear a niqab, after becoming a Canadian citizen, said it’s not fair to tell a new citizen not to be herself when she’s taking her oath.
This is one ceremony when a woman should be comfortable in her own skin and she should be able to wear whatever they want to, said Shomyla Hammad, a mother of two from Pakistan who moved to Canada in 2002.
She only began wearing a niqab eight years ago (she wore a hijab at her citizenship ceremony).
It was a part of a spiritual journey, she told Global News at her home in Mississauga. No one else in her family wears the covering and her husband was initially opposed to it, something she says is contrary to what people commonly believe about women who wear a niqab.
I want every Canadian to know that [this] was the decision I [made] because I was in Canada. Anywhere else in the world, I wouldn’t be able to [make] this decision, Hammad said. Canada empowered me. Canada taught me how to be yourself and do whatever you want to do.
Does she sound oppressed to you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Greatest I am, posted 10-27-2015 8:51 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Greatest I am, posted 10-28-2015 9:01 AM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 82 of 372 (771579)
10-27-2015 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Greatest I am
10-27-2015 8:55 AM


Greatest I am writes:
What is more important to you?
Protecting the culture of female oppression and ownership by men or the Canadian culture of freedom for women from ownership of men?
You're the one who wants to deny women the right to make their own choice.
Edited by ringo, : Fixed quote.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Greatest I am, posted 10-27-2015 8:55 AM Greatest I am has not replied

Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


(1)
Message 83 of 372 (771592)
10-27-2015 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Greatest I am
10-27-2015 11:24 AM


French ban on burqas
Hi, GIA.
GIA writes:
I will have the moment a fire hits any building in those countries and girls do not die because they were forced to wear that apparel.
I've never heard "protection from fire" listed as one of the claimed reasons for wearing a burqa.
GIA writes:
I do have statistical information that all the citizens of both France and Belgium are better off in the sense that the majority ruled that the apparel in question was not desired by the majority.
Perhaps I'm being a bit obtuse here, but it seems like you're defining "better off" to mean "the majority has told the minority where they can stick it, and the minority is now sticking it there." I will need some more convincing before I accept this definition.
The evidence I would expect to see if burqa bans are effective might look like some of the following:
  1. a statistically significant decrease in domestic violence incidents perpetrated by Muslim men against Muslim women
  2. a statistically significant increase in average well-being as self-reported by Muslim women on questionnaires
  3. a statistically significant positive shift in various metrics of gender equality within the Muslim community of France since the burqa ban.
I very well might begin to change my mind on this issue if evidence like this comes forward. As it stands however, the evidence of which I am aware seems pretty ambiguous, which makes me disinclined to support it.
GIA writes:
That rule of law serves all the Muslims in those communities as it protects the predominant culture and their desires.
In general, my political philosophy advocates for a certain degree of conformity with majority opinion, but forced conformity is very likely to breed unrest.

-Blue Jay, Ph.D.*
*Yeah, it's real
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Greatest I am, posted 10-27-2015 11:24 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Greatest I am, posted 10-28-2015 9:06 AM Blue Jay has replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(2)
Message 84 of 372 (771598)
10-27-2015 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Blue Jay
10-27-2015 10:55 AM


Have to control those women to free them
Blue Jay writes:
Why do you insist on vilifying me?
I am not opposed to "doing the right thing": I am in disagreement with you over what "the right thing" is.
Please stop conflating these two things.
GIA will conflate them, pose them as two horns of a dilemma, twist them in any way required to grafity GIA's self-righteousness.
GIA is practicing moral terrorism: you're either with us or a'gin us. Agree with me, in diagnosis and prescription alike, or you are a moral leper. It is the rhetoric of a lynch mob. What would people not agree to if this stuff carried the day?
It's a child-like, bully vision of good and evil: easy to distinguish, easy to destroy the outward signs of what we abhor, easy to believe that then all will be well.
It's not about the oppressiveness of burkas; it's about the refusal to live with the differences they represent.
I hate to fall to Godwin's law, but this is how you get there.
NB: Subtitle sucked.
Edited by Omnivorous, : pronouns

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Blue Jay, posted 10-27-2015 10:55 AM Blue Jay has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Greatest I am, posted 10-28-2015 9:12 AM Omnivorous has replied

Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2368 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


Message 85 of 372 (771623)
10-28-2015 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Greatest I am
10-27-2015 8:33 AM


Re: Pajama Bottoms at the bottom of the style barrel
Repeat after me : Canada
You were talking about Canada remember? How does making the niqab illegal in Canada would change the lives of women in other countries?
Please stick to your own topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Greatest I am, posted 10-27-2015 8:33 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Greatest I am, posted 10-28-2015 9:14 AM Bliyaal has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 86 of 372 (771630)
10-28-2015 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by ringo
10-27-2015 11:44 AM


ringo
Does it sound like when in Rome do as the Romans do?
You forget that Islam's agenda is always to try to have Sharia as the law of the land.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dRr854zxbA&feature=playe...
If they do not want to live by our hard earned standards then they can stay the hell away.
You may not have noted that they always want to live in our better systems and few of us try to go to theirs to live because we would not like their standards.
Why would you want Canada to regress towards right wing fundamental Muslim standards?
Do you like homophobes and misogyny?
Regards
DL
Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 10-27-2015 11:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by ringo, posted 10-28-2015 11:54 AM Greatest I am has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 87 of 372 (771632)
10-28-2015 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Blue Jay
10-27-2015 2:38 PM


Re: French ban on burqas
Blue Jay
LOL.
"but forced conformity is very likely to breed unrest."
What is every law we have on the books if not forced conformity?
Democracy is the tyranny of the majority.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Blue Jay, posted 10-27-2015 2:38 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Blue Jay, posted 10-28-2015 12:49 PM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 108 by Blue Jay, posted 10-28-2015 12:57 PM Greatest I am has not replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 88 of 372 (771635)
10-28-2015 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Omnivorous
10-27-2015 5:45 PM


Re: Have to control those women to free them
Omnivorous
I pulled the one statement I saw as worthy and true.
"It's not about the oppressiveness of burkas; it's about the refusal to live with the differences they represent."
Your first is only partially true as oppression is secondary to your last.
I refuse to live with an outward sigh of internal slavery that many Muslim women have to live under.
All moral people will be offended to have slaves in our free land.
Did you hear what that woman in the O.P.'s link said about her husband saying--- its just a small piece of cloth?
What is the cost of your freedom?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Omnivorous, posted 10-27-2015 5:45 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Omnivorous, posted 10-28-2015 11:05 AM Greatest I am has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 89 of 372 (771637)
10-28-2015 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Bliyaal
10-28-2015 7:59 AM


Re: Pajama Bottoms at the bottom of the style barrel
Bliyaal
Canada would be seen as leading by moral example.
Every nail in the coffin of immoral actions, oppression and slavery is required before we bury such foul policies.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Bliyaal, posted 10-28-2015 7:59 AM Bliyaal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Bliyaal, posted 10-28-2015 9:32 AM Greatest I am has replied

Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2368 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


Message 90 of 372 (771645)
10-28-2015 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Greatest I am
10-28-2015 9:14 AM


Re: Pajama Bottoms at the bottom of the style barrel
But Canada IS a leading example! Everyone as the RIGHT to choose what they want to wear. Again, you and radical fundamentalist muslims are on the same playing field : oppression. You are what you want to eliminate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Greatest I am, posted 10-28-2015 9:14 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Greatest I am, posted 10-28-2015 9:42 AM Bliyaal has replied

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