Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,807 Year: 3,064/9,624 Month: 909/1,588 Week: 92/223 Day: 3/17 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Are religions manmade and natural or supernaturally based?
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 46 of 511 (771526)
10-26-2015 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
10-13-2015 7:57 PM


God
Hi Greatest I am,
Greatest I am writes:
Do you think Gods are manmade or do you believe in a supernatural God?
I believe in a supernatural God.
Everybody says why?
Scientific fact: The universe has not always existed.
Scientific fact: The universe had a beginning to exist.
Scientific fact: The universe exists.
Before the universe there would have been an absence of anything. No space, time, matter, energy, or vacuum, as all those began to exist when the universe began to exist.
Now whatever caused the universe to have a beginning to exist from an absence of anything would be a supernatural power.
I call that supernatural power God, what do you call it?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 10-13-2015 7:57 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Pressie, posted 10-27-2015 7:53 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 64 by Greatest I am, posted 10-27-2015 10:51 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 70 by ringo, posted 10-27-2015 12:03 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 80 of 511 (771600)
10-27-2015 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Pressie
10-27-2015 7:53 AM


Re: God
Hi Pressie,
Pressie writes:
Really? The jury is still out on that one. Better change it to: the Universe, as we know it, didn't always exist. But again, it's not strictly true, as there's no 'before' our current Universe.
Are you stating the Big Bang Theory is wrong and should be replaced with a new theory?
Pressie writes:
Really? The jury is still out on that one. Better change it to: the Universe, as we know it, didn't always exist. But again, it's not strictly true, as there's no 'before' our current Universe.
Yes I have heard many assertions that there was no 'before' our current Universe.
Then why did you state " Better change it to: the Universe, as we know it, didn't always exist."?
But for the Big Bang theory to be correct that is impossible as the universe would be dead a long time ago. There are some laws that cover that.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Pressie, posted 10-27-2015 7:53 AM Pressie has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 81 of 511 (771602)
10-27-2015 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Greatest I am
10-27-2015 10:51 AM


Re: God
Hi GIA,
GIA writes:
Science says that before the big bang, all that is was compressed into about the size of a sugar cube, so your view of there being nothing is not what science is saying.
Well you are the first one that has guessed that whatever was at T=0 was that large. The math breaks down and can not tell us anything about T=0. Cavediver, and many others tell me it was the size of pin point.
But the only truthful answer is "We don't Know what existed at T=0".
So yes the Big Bang theory says there was no thing at T=0. The math does not work and can tell us nothing and there is nothing else we have to tell us what was there.
GIA writes:
But if I follow your view of there having to be something to produce what is, then that logic would also have to apply to your God who, from your logic, could not exist without having something before him.
Yes there would have to be some supernatural power to produce your compressed sugar cube size object.
From nothing comes nothing.
GIA writes:
You ignore your own logic by saying God is supernatural. Which is an un-provable statement as we have no access to the supernatural.
I do not ignore my own logic. I said there had to be a supernatural power to produce the universe and I call that supernatural power God.
GIA writes:
Icant said: I call that supernatural power God, what do you call it?"
I call it you inventing a God of the Gaps.
I did not invent anything and you did not answer the question.
So I will ask again. What do you call the supernatural power that was required to produce the universe?
GIA writes:
I do not give science any more credibility for their view as they have yet to show why the big bang occurred so they too have Gods of the Gaps at the present time that they are calling string theory, branes and multi-verses.
My next question would be: Where did the power come from that produced the space or vacuum where the branes could appear?
How could there be a bunch of multi-verses without all usable energy running out in eternity past?
It makes no difference how far you want to go back you have to have a supernatural power that had all power to create the universe or what ever came before it.
Nothing produce Nothing always has and always will.
GIA writes:
You have decides to believe in the supernatural while I have decided to remain in the natural primarily because your God is showing less moral values than what man, a natural creature has designed.
Now if you want to discuss my supernatural power I call God and your supernatural power you call a natural God lets not do it in this thread, but one that is dedicated to that subject matter.
GIA writes:
Remember that your God began Christianity by basing it on a barbaric human sacrifice and the notion that the guilty should profit from your God having his own son needlessly murdered.
Your theology leaves a lot to be desired.
My supernatural God did not have his son needlessly murdered. He came to earth Himself and willingly gave His life that everyone could have the opportunity to live with Him for eternity.
GIA writes:
No moral man would do such a thing and therefore our moral sense is superior to your Gods.
God is not a moral man. God is a supernatural power that is a God of Justice.
Are you saying our men who are sent into battle to die by the powers that be makes your moral sense superior to the supernatural power that caused the universe to exist?
GIA writes:
I am a Gnostic Christian, yes, but our beliefs are not what Christianity says they are. We lost the God wars and they distorted our belief system. The lies have been known since the findings of our scriptures and myths at Nag Hammadi.
A Gnostic Christian is no more a Christian than my cat is. The word Christian means Christ like and without accepting God you can't do that.
GIA writes:
When you can name your God, I am, and mean yourself, you will begin to know the only God you will ever find. Becoming a God is to become more fully human and a brethren to Jesus.
Isn't that what Eve did in the garden when she ate the fruit to become like God. In other words to be her own God.
God Bless,]

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Greatest I am, posted 10-27-2015 10:51 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by NoNukes, posted 10-27-2015 7:50 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 88 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-27-2015 10:34 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 99 by Greatest I am, posted 10-28-2015 8:37 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 82 of 511 (771603)
10-27-2015 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by ringo
10-27-2015 12:03 PM


Re: God
Hi ringo,
ringo writes:
No God.
I don't care if you call the supernatural power God or Jimbo, there had to be a supernatural power to cause the universe to begin to exist.
The pure energy that became the mass of the universe had to come from somewhere. It can not produce it's self. Therefore it had to come from a supernatural power. It had to be a supernatural power as it could have no beginning to exist.
ringo writes:
You're arbitrarily defining something "outside" the universe as "God". That's not a reason to think that a God exists. It's just a misunderstanding of what the universe is.
I am defining a supernatural power outside of the universe which I call God but you can call that identity anything you desire.
Fact is energy and mass cannot be created neither can it be destroyed. It can get to the point that there is no usable energy.
Isn't this the reason Einstein added a fudge factor to his equation because he believed in a static universe that had existed eternally in the past?
But without that fudge factor the universe had to have a beginning to exist.
Nothing produces nothing.
So why is there something rather than nothing?
Multi-verses would have produced a dead universe eon's ago.
Branes had no place to exist to bang together and start the universe and if they did where did that vacuum come from. Some supernatural power had to create the vacuum.
Now as to my misunderstanding as to what the universe is.
The universe is everything you can see and all those things you can not see. It had a beginning to exist in the distant past. The only answer science has for that beginning to exist is: "We don't Know".
I propose it had to begin to exist by a supernatural power that was able to furnish all the energy and mass that makes up the universe we see today. This supernatural power had to be outside of the universe, mans knowledge and understanding.
No matter what theory of the beginning to exist of the universe that is put forth, all would require an outside energy source.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by ringo, posted 10-27-2015 12:03 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by ringo, posted 10-28-2015 11:41 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 84 of 511 (771605)
10-27-2015 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by NoNukes
10-27-2015 7:50 PM


Re: God
Hi NoNukes,
NoNukes writes:
ICANT writes:
So yes the Big Bang theory says there was no thing at T=0. The math does not work and can tell us nothing and there is nothing else we have to tell us what was there.
No, that is not quite correct. At best the science tells us something about what existed as far back as small fractions of a second after T=0. Maybe at times just after 10-43 s. But nobody knows whether there was a thing or a nothing at T=0.
There is nothing science can produce that would tell us a thing is there.
The math tells us that nothing is there as the math breaks down.
So what part of my statement is not correct?
Hello to you too. I have been very busy lately working on getting my sheepskin. For what, I have no idea I just decided I wanted it before my 80th birthday. lol I still got 4 years to get there, all I like is my thesis.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by NoNukes, posted 10-27-2015 7:50 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-27-2015 8:29 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 141 by NoNukes, posted 10-30-2015 2:41 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 87 of 511 (771611)
10-27-2015 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by New Cat's Eye
10-27-2015 8:29 PM


Re: God
Hi Cat,
Cat writes:
No, if the math breaks down then it doesn't tell us anything.
I was just stating what Cavediver has said to me many times.
But I am willing to agree that the math produces a blank sheet.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-27-2015 8:29 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-28-2015 9:12 AM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 91 of 511 (771617)
10-28-2015 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Dr Adequate
10-27-2015 10:34 PM


Re: ICANT, Meet ICANT
Hi Dr,
Dr writes:
I'm sure the two of you have a lot to discuss. Let us know when you reach a consensus.
I have my mind made up.
Scientist is the ones that do not have their mind made up.
Since your reading skills are not up to par tonight I will refresh your memory of my original statement.
"I believe in a supernatural God.
Everybody says why?
Scientific fact: The universe has not always existed.
Scientific fact: The universe had a beginning to exist.
Scientific fact: The universe exists.
Before the universe there would have been an absence of anything. No space, time, matter, energy, or vacuum, as all those began to exist when the universe began to exist.
Now whatever caused the universe to have a beginning to exist from an absence of anything would be a supernatural power.
I call that supernatural power God, what do you call it?"
As you see my mind is made up, and I gave my reasons.
Scientist are the only ones that have to say "we don't know".
Now if you have an alternative as to how the universe can have a beginning to exist without a supernatural power producing it share your evidence with us.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-27-2015 10:34 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Pressie, posted 10-28-2015 6:56 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 98 by Pressie, posted 10-28-2015 8:22 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 107 by Omnivorous, posted 10-28-2015 9:27 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 110 of 511 (771652)
10-28-2015 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Pressie
10-28-2015 6:56 AM


Re: confusion
Hi Pressie,
Pressie writes:
ICANT writes:
But the only truthful answer is "We don't Know what existed at T=0".
ICANT writes:
It had to be a supernatural power
ICANT writes:
Before the universe there would have been an absence of anything.
Let us know when the three ICANT's reach consensus.
The truthful answer, "We don't know" is Cavediver's and Son Goku's answer to what existed at T=0. This is not my answer or position.
If you disagree with their answer give yours.
The answer, "it had to be a supernatural power" is my position and my answer to what existed at T=0.
If you disagree with my answer then give yours.
The statement, "Before the universe there would have been an absence of anything" is the only conclusion that can be reached if there is no supernatural power.
If you disagree with that statement then give your conclusion.
I hope this clears it up for you as to what my position is.
My statement stands:
Scientific fact: The universe has not always existed.
Scientific fact: The universe had a beginning to exist.
Scientific fact: The universe exists.
Since the universe exists there had to be a supernatural power that is outside of the universe to provide the energy required to produce the mass and energy of the universe.
Energy and mass can not be created or destroyed is a law of physics.
Which would require a supernatural power to supply the energy and mass required to produce the universe as it is known.
I call that supernatural power God. If you have an alternative to a supernatural power please present it.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Pressie, posted 10-28-2015 6:56 AM Pressie has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 111 of 511 (771654)
10-28-2015 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Pressie
10-28-2015 8:22 AM


Re: ICANT, Meet ICANT
Hi Pressie,
Pressie writes:
I take it that you write that scientists are the people who can't make their minds up.
How do you reach that assumption if you keep my words in context?
I am talking about 1 specific thing. What existed at T=0 and what caused there to be something rather than nothing.
Pressie writes:
Hope you do know that it's a virtue and not a vice? In the industry I work in (economic geology) scientists change their minds all the time as new evidence comes along. It works. Very, very well. Getting closer to reality all the time.
Working in industry where the survival of a company depends on refining methods and procedures is actually science at work.
Working with grants, agendas have to be met and appeased to keep the grants coming. Keeping the grants coming is the most important thing. True science has to take a backseat to the most important thing.
Now back to the subject at hand.
Is there any way the universe can exist without the energy and mass that constitute the present universe being provided by a supernatural power?
I see no alternative. Do you have one?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Pressie, posted 10-28-2015 8:22 AM Pressie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Pressie, posted 10-29-2015 6:30 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 113 of 511 (771658)
10-28-2015 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Omnivorous
10-28-2015 9:27 AM


Re: ICANT, Meet ICANT
Hi Omnivorous,
Omnivorous writes:
Could you tell me what scientific work demonstrated that the universe has not always existed?
The universe is expanding. which rules out a static universe.
The Big Bang Theory requires the universe having a beginning to exist.
Stephen Hawking made the following statement concerning the universe.
quote:
In this lecture, I would like to discuss whether time itself has a beginning, and whether it will have an end. All the evidence seems to indicate, that the universe has not existed forever, but that it had a beginning, about 15 billion years ago. This is probably the most remarkable discovery of modern cosmology. Yet it is now taken for granted.
The page you were looking for doesn't exist (404)
So I will let you take up your argument as to whether the universe has not always existed and had a beginning about 15 billion years ago with Stephen Hawking.
Omnivorous writes:
You're just looking around, saying, "Whoa! Look at me, I exist! There must be a god!" People did that long before any notion of science. You're whistling in the dark, abusing science to justify the same conclusions drawn by primitive peoples.
No I am just taking the word of one of the best scientist of our day at his word.
The universe has not always existed.
The universe began to exist.
When we look around the universe exists.
Why is there something rather than nothing?
If the laws of the conservation of energy and mass is correct there had to be a supernatural power source that supplied the necessary energy and mass to produce the present universe we see.
Do you have a viable energy source other than a supernatural power? If so present it rather than grading my work.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Omnivorous, posted 10-28-2015 9:27 AM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Omnivorous, posted 10-28-2015 12:23 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 124 by Pressie, posted 10-29-2015 6:43 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 117 of 511 (771700)
10-28-2015 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by ringo
10-28-2015 11:41 AM


Re: God
Hi ringo,
ringo writes:
No. There didn't. That speculation doesn't answer anything.
I just pinched myself to see if I existed and it hurt. Because of that I think I exist.
OK you ruled out there being a supernatural power, supplying the energy to supply the energy and mass to produce the universe.
What do you propose existed to provide that energy and mass?
ringo writes:
By your reasoning, your creator requires a creator and that creator requires its own creator and so on, ad infinitum. It's a useless concept.
I have no idea where you get your assertion from.
I believe and have stated that the supernatural power has to be outside of the universe and would be required to be eternal.
Only if that entity was inside the universe would it be subject to the laws of the universe. But that entity had to establish the rules the universe is subject too.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by ringo, posted 10-28-2015 11:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by ringo, posted 10-29-2015 11:57 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 118 of 511 (771702)
10-28-2015 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Omnivorous
10-28-2015 12:23 PM


Re: ICANT,
Hi Omnivorous,
Are you saying Stephen Hawking did not say the following?
quote:
In this lecture, I would like to discuss whether time itself has a beginning, and whether it will have an end. All the evidence seems to indicate, that the universe has not existed forever, but that it had a beginning, about 15 billion years ago. This is probably the most remarkable discovery of modern cosmology. Yet it is now taken for granted.
The page you were looking for doesn't exist (404)
Did he say: "All the evidence seems to indicate, that the universe has not existed forever, but that it had a beginning, about 15 billion years ago."? yes/no No explanation necessary.
Did he say: "This is probably the most remarkable discovery of modern cosmology."? yes/no No explanation necessary.
Did he say: "Yet it is now taken for granted"? yes/no no explanation necessary.
What is currently taken for granted?
1. The universe has not existed forever.
2. (It) the universe had a beginning, about 15 billion years ago.
He did say those things and you have the source from his website so you can check it out for yourself.
Now if you want to supply your sources you are quoting I will read them.
Omnivorous writes:
Hawking doesn't say there was nothing before the Big Bang--he says we have no way to know anything about those conditions.
Actually he proposed an instanton which would have required several things to exist prior to the instanton appearing and creating the universe. But I will look up my notes on this and discuss it later, as I don't want to attribute something to him he did not say.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Omnivorous, posted 10-28-2015 12:23 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Omnivorous, posted 10-28-2015 6:12 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 120 of 511 (771729)
10-29-2015 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Omnivorous
10-28-2015 6:12 PM


Re: ICANT,
Hi Omnivorous,
Omnivorous writes:
You are cherry-picking narrative bits in order to misrepresent a contemporary, complex view.
I gave you 3 direct quotes from the lecture by Stephen Hawking.
And I asked you did he say each one of them.
I will give you one more chance to either confirm or deny that Steven Hawking said what I said he said.
ICANT writes:
Did he say: "All the evidence seems to indicate, that the universe has not existed forever, but that it had a beginning, about 15 billion years ago."? yes/no No explanation necessary.
Did he say: "This is probably the most remarkable discovery of modern cosmology."? yes/no No explanation necessary.
Did he say: "Yet it is now taken for granted"? yes/no no explanation necessary.
I finally found your first quote from The Grand Design.
Your second quote was from the article I had quoted part of the first paragraph of his lecture from.
I appreciate Stephen Hawking's efforts but his theology about Genesis is completely wrong. There is no place in Genesis that claims that the universe or earth was created in 4004 BC. That is a YEC belief fostered by the visions of Ellen G. White after a bad head injury back in the 1800's.
How could the laws that govern the universe exist inside the universe and control the beginning of the universe? Those laws could not exist until after the universe existed.
Stephen Hawking writes:
The conclusion of this lecture is that the universe has not existed forever. Rather, the universe, and time itself, had a beginning in the Big Bang, about 15 billion years ago. The beginning of real time, would have been a singularity, at which the laws of physics would have broken down.
It seems like his conclusions concur with his opening paragraph.
I have a couple more quotes to add.
quote:
In fact, the theory that the universe has existed forever is in serious difficulty with the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The Second Law, states that disorder always increases with time. Like the argument about human progress, it indicates that there must have been a beginning. Otherwise, the universe would be in a state of complete disorder by now, and everything would be at the same temperature.
It seems as if he believed that if the universe had existed forever it would be a dead universe.
quote:
In a universe that was essentially static, there would not have been any dynamical reason, why the stars should have suddenly turned on, at some time. Any such "lighting up time" would have to be imposed by an intervention from outside the universe.
In discussing the star light in a static universe would have required the stars to light up not too far in the past for them to be operational. For that to have happened he believed they would have to have been lite up by intervention from outside the universe.
Stephen Hawking writes:
If space and imaginary time are indeed like the surface of the Earth, there wouldn't be any singularities in the imaginary time direction, at which the laws of physics would break down.
I always loved this statement. Imaginary time in a imaginary place to do away with the singularity. One way to get rid of a problem. I would like to see an experiment that could accomplish that feat.
I did read in his book The Grand Design, that it was possible for a universe to be produced out of nothing.
I would like to see an experiment that produced anything out of nothing.
It takes more faith to believe that than it does to believe in God.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Omnivorous, posted 10-28-2015 6:12 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Pressie, posted 10-29-2015 7:25 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 129 by Omnivorous, posted 10-29-2015 4:24 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 128 of 511 (771766)
10-29-2015 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Pressie
10-29-2015 6:30 AM


Re: ICANT,
Hi Pressie,
Pressie writes:
Around 50% of the income the organisation I work for do come from grants. I work in economic geology.
Who supplies the grants?
Pressie writes:
Actually, the company I work for only has one agenda. To deliver the most reliable product to our customers. Mining companies, exploration companies, Governments, scientific organisations, chicken farmers, etc.
If the company you work for produces the most reliable product to the customers why do they need grants?
Pressie writes:
Not for the organisation I work for. For us delivering the most reliable products is the most important thing. Then the income from mining companies and governments and chicken farmers, etc. just flows in and we get paid more! And we get more grants, too!
Again why does the company you work for need grants?
Pressie writes:
True science, hey? It seems like you think that the science works like religions do...you read a favourite book and believe it must be true...science doesn't work like that.
I think true science and true religion work in similar ways.
They both are to seek the truth and when the truth is found they will agree. If not one, or both is wrong.
God Bless,
Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Pressie, posted 10-29-2015 6:30 AM Pressie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Pressie, posted 10-30-2015 6:51 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 130 of 511 (771768)
10-29-2015 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Pressie
10-29-2015 6:43 AM


Re: ICANT,
Hi Pressie,
Pressie writes:
You lost the argument the moment you tried an argument from authority, an authority who doesn't agree with you, ICANT.
How was I trying an argument from authority?
I simply stated what Stephen Hawking said.
I did not argue his point either way, I just accepted what he said.
If you disagree with what he said present your arguments to the contrary.
Pressie writes:
"No divine force was needed to explain why the Universe was formed."
Because there is a law such as gravity, the Universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the Universe exists, why we exist.
It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the Universe going.
It would have been nice if you had given the source of these comments.
Since you did not I will give them for you. They come from his book The Grand Design, which was written years after his lecture. I haven't had the opportunity to read the entire book yet but I will. I do know from the quotes you use he is bound and determined to prove that there is no need for a God in creation.
Now to the quotes you provided.
quote:
"No divine force was needed to explain why the Universe was formed."
Hawking created imaginary time in which his instanton could pop into existence and produce a universe just like the one we live in. The problem is he did not supply a source for whatever existed that the instanton appeared in. There is no research, are even good argumentation to support either. In fact one of his best buddies didn't think much of his idea.
His assertion does not make his words a fact.
quote:
Because there is a law such as gravity, the Universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the Universe exists, why we exist.
There can be no gravity in non existence.
From nothing comes nothing. No existence = no universe.
Maybe you know of an experiment where spontaneous creation took place. If you do I would like to read about it.
The universe exists because it exists. The question is how did the universe begin to exist. Hawking has presented 0 evidence to support his assertions.
Even in these quotes he is still stating the universe had a beginning to exist. He is just trying to get the job done without an outside supernatural power.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Pressie, posted 10-29-2015 6:43 AM Pressie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by kbertsche, posted 10-30-2015 12:20 AM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024