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Author Topic:   Are religions manmade and natural or supernaturally based?
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 91 of 511 (771617)
10-28-2015 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Dr Adequate
10-27-2015 10:34 PM


Re: ICANT, Meet ICANT
Hi Dr,
Dr writes:
I'm sure the two of you have a lot to discuss. Let us know when you reach a consensus.
I have my mind made up.
Scientist is the ones that do not have their mind made up.
Since your reading skills are not up to par tonight I will refresh your memory of my original statement.
"I believe in a supernatural God.
Everybody says why?
Scientific fact: The universe has not always existed.
Scientific fact: The universe had a beginning to exist.
Scientific fact: The universe exists.
Before the universe there would have been an absence of anything. No space, time, matter, energy, or vacuum, as all those began to exist when the universe began to exist.
Now whatever caused the universe to have a beginning to exist from an absence of anything would be a supernatural power.
I call that supernatural power God, what do you call it?"
As you see my mind is made up, and I gave my reasons.
Scientist are the only ones that have to say "we don't know".
Now if you have an alternative as to how the universe can have a beginning to exist without a supernatural power producing it share your evidence with us.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-27-2015 10:34 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Pressie, posted 10-28-2015 6:56 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 98 by Pressie, posted 10-28-2015 8:22 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 107 by Omnivorous, posted 10-28-2015 9:27 AM ICANT has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 92 of 511 (771618)
10-28-2015 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by kbertsche
10-27-2015 8:48 PM


quote:
Morrison was a lawyer who was convinced that miracles did not occur and that Jesus was nothing more than a (misunderstood) good man. He set out to write a booklet arguing his case, focused primarily in what he saw as contradictions in the gospel accounts just before and including Jesus' crucifixion.
Rather than arguing with an entire book - and I note that you don't quote any arguments from it - I'll point out that it is events AFTER Jesus' death that are important to the resurrection. Looking at the wrong evidence is hardly a good way to reach a conclusion.
To add further, on having looked at the text it seems to have very little value. Morrison uncritically accepts the Gospeks as reliable. It does not, for instance occur to him that the Gospel accounts of Jesus trial would be heavily biased and naturally would insist on Jesus' innocence - the more so if they were relying on Christian sources.
Now maybe somewhere Morrison comes up with a good answer to a point I have raised. But digging through such unpromising material to find points to refute is hardly worth my time. If kbertsche wishes to claim such arguments are there it is his responsibility to produce them.
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by kbertsche, posted 10-27-2015 8:48 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by kbertsche, posted 10-28-2015 5:29 AM PaulK has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2132 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 93 of 511 (771620)
10-28-2015 5:29 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by PaulK
10-28-2015 1:15 AM


PaulK writes:
Rather than arguing with an entire book - and I note that you don't quote any arguments from it - I'll point out that it is events AFTER Jesus' death that are important to the resurrection. Looking at the wrong evidence is hardly a good way to reach a conclusion.
Yes, and Morrison came to the same conclusion, as he explained in his first chapter. And this is why he titled his book "Who Moved the Stone?"
PaulK writes:
To add further, on having looked at the text it seems to have very little value. Morrison uncritically accepts the Gospeks as reliable. It does not, for instance occur to him that the Gospel accounts of Jesus trial would be heavily biased and naturally would insist on Jesus' innocence - the more so if they were relying on Christian sources.
Now maybe somewhere Morrison comes up with a good answer to a point I have raised. But digging through such unpromising material to find points to refute is hardly worth my time. If kbertsche wishes to claim such arguments are there it is his responsibility to produce them.
Basically, Morrison approached the gospel accounts as a lawyer examining purported eyewitness claims, intending to show that they were inconsistent with one another. But instead he concluded that they were consistent with one another and with real eyewitness testimony.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by PaulK, posted 10-28-2015 1:15 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by PaulK, posted 10-28-2015 7:00 AM kbertsche has replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(1)
Message 94 of 511 (771621)
10-28-2015 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by ICANT
10-28-2015 1:01 AM


Re: ICANT, Meet ICANT
ICANT writes:
But the only truthful answer is "We don't Know what existed at T=0".
ICANT writes:
It had to be a supernatural power
ICANT writes:
Before the universe there would have been an absence of anything.
Let us know when the three ICANT's reach consensus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by ICANT, posted 10-28-2015 1:01 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by ICANT, posted 10-28-2015 10:12 AM Pressie has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 95 of 511 (771622)
10-28-2015 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by kbertsche
10-28-2015 5:29 AM


Imagine a lawyer appealing a court decision.
Imagine that he submits a document which he identifies as minutes of the trial
Suppose that this document is written by partisans of the accused, who were not present for the trial.
That's the sort of lawyer Morrison was. At least according to you.
Unless you admit that he was writing as an apologist, not a lawyer, a believer who unquestioningly accepted the Gospels as accurate - even when dealing with matters that none of the authors witnessed - you are not honestly presenting Morrison's work.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by kbertsche, posted 10-28-2015 5:29 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Faith, posted 10-28-2015 9:06 AM PaulK has replied
 Message 112 by kbertsche, posted 10-28-2015 11:08 AM PaulK has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 96 of 511 (771624)
10-28-2015 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
10-26-2015 9:45 AM


Re: More evidence for the resurrection
Faith
"It is not a narrative. It is a bogus made-up dialogue putting words in the mouths of Biblical personalities they would never say."
Tell us why that is bogus and made-up dialog that you refuse to accept yet will accept dialog coming from a talking serpent and donkey?
Why accept what animals say but not what humans say?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 10-26-2015 9:45 AM Faith has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 97 of 511 (771625)
10-28-2015 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Faith
10-27-2015 11:45 AM


Re: Constantine and Nicea
Faith
So all the churches are corrupted except for yours.
You go ahead and believe that self-inflicted lie.
You believe what the winners of the God wars is telling you while ignoring that the winners wrote the history they wanted you to work with. You believe those lies while ignoring Jesus and scriptures.
Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 10-27-2015 11:45 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Faith, posted 10-28-2015 9:04 AM Greatest I am has replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(1)
Message 98 of 511 (771626)
10-28-2015 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by ICANT
10-28-2015 1:01 AM


Re: ICANT, Meet ICANT
ICANT writes:
Scientist is the ones that do not have their mind made up.
I take it that you write that scientists are the people who can't make their minds up.
Hope you do know that it's a virtue and not a vice? In the industry I work in (economic geology) scientists change their minds all the time as new evidence comes along. It works. Very, very well. Getting closer to reality all the time.
That's the way mining companies spend billions on exploration and mining. To change one's mind when new evidence comes along to get closer to reality is a virtue. Not a vice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by ICANT, posted 10-28-2015 1:01 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by ICANT, posted 10-28-2015 10:44 AM Pressie has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 99 of 511 (771628)
10-28-2015 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by ICANT
10-27-2015 7:17 PM


Re: God
ICANT
God is said to say that A & E became as God's in the knowing of good and evil.
If God says that, who are you to deny the gospels?
---------
"God is not a moral man. God is a supernatural power that is a God of Justice."
This indicates God's first work as a judge. Do you think a good judge sets and accepts bribes and sacrifices?
1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
Do you vote for judges where you are and would you vote in a judge who accepts bribes and sacrifices and punishes the innocent instead of the guilty?
-----------
"Are you saying our men who are sent into battle to die by the powers that be makes your moral sense superior to the supernatural power that caused the universe to exist?"
Are you serious?
Compare that morality to your God killing and torturing all the babies and innocent children that he is shown to kill in scriptures.
----------
"What do you call the supernatural power that was required to produce the universe?"
Your imagination.
Why would you choose a God that is such a prick to follow?
Do you not have any pride or moral sense?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by ICANT, posted 10-27-2015 7:17 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 100 of 511 (771629)
10-28-2015 8:46 AM


The resurrection is irrelevant as to Jesus being the messiah.
The messiah was to live and rule over the Jews, not take off and never return.
What good is a savior that does not save?
Only those who have sold their souls to Satan be believing in all kinds of supernatural garbage will not recognize that a savior that does not save is not worth anything.
Regards
DL

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 101 of 511 (771631)
10-28-2015 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Greatest I am
10-28-2015 8:18 AM


Re: Constantine and Nicea
Remarkable. Everybody is a liar who disagrees with you. In fact everybody is a liar but you. I guess we should all bow down and worship you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Greatest I am, posted 10-28-2015 8:18 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Greatest I am, posted 10-28-2015 9:17 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 102 of 511 (771633)
10-28-2015 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by PaulK
10-28-2015 7:00 AM


You and GIA are going to have to fight it out for the honor of being the only one who never lies. All your opponents lie. That's really your only argument, they're all liars.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by PaulK, posted 10-28-2015 7:00 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Greatest I am, posted 10-28-2015 9:18 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 106 by PaulK, posted 10-28-2015 9:18 AM Faith has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 511 (771636)
10-28-2015 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by ICANT
10-27-2015 9:30 PM


Re: God
But I am willing to agree that the math produces a blank sheet.
No, if the math breaks down then it doesn't produce anything.
ABE:
As you say in Message 81:
quote:
The math does not work and can tell us nothing and there is nothing else we have to tell us what was there.
So it's not even telling us that there is a "blank sheet".
So this statement is also wrong:
quote:
So yes the Big Bang theory says there was no thing at T=0.
It does not tell us about what was there, not even that it was no thing.
Edited by Cat Sci, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by ICANT, posted 10-27-2015 9:30 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 104 of 511 (771638)
10-28-2015 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Faith
10-28-2015 9:04 AM


Re: Constantine and Nicea
Faith
How easily you ignore what Jesus says for a cheap insult to me.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Faith, posted 10-28-2015 9:04 AM Faith has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 105 of 511 (771639)
10-28-2015 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Faith
10-28-2015 9:06 AM


Faith
You are the one who said all other dogma's were lies except for yours.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Faith, posted 10-28-2015 9:06 AM Faith has not replied

  
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