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Author Topic:   Should countries outlaw the hijab, niqab and burka?
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 106 of 372 (771677)
10-28-2015 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by ringo
10-28-2015 12:44 PM


ringo
The majority will rule and so far my side looks to be ahead as most recognize that Islam is quite a misogynistic and immoral religion.
The left wing is not nearly as evil as the right wing and it is a shame that some few on the left will have to be restricted to insure the freedoms of the many.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 10-28-2015 12:44 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by ringo, posted 10-28-2015 1:04 PM Greatest I am has replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 107 of 372 (771678)
10-28-2015 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Greatest I am
10-28-2015 12:29 PM


Re: Have to control those women to free them
GIA writes:
Omnivorous
I am the mirror image of what I loathe because as a Gnostic Christian, I tie equality to righteousness and if you do not, you are not a moral man.
That's what I thought--"holy me and evil thee" really is all you've got.
I'll pop in occasionally to remind you of that.
In the meantime, consider the fact that on a discussion board with Christian believers, Jews, Buddhists, agnostics, atheists, liberals, conservatives, and socialists, et alia, nearly all of whom advocate liberty and reason--you are finding no support for your proposition.
Like "Only-One-in-Step" Johnny, you must be very special.
Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Greatest I am, posted 10-28-2015 12:29 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Greatest I am, posted 10-28-2015 1:05 PM Omnivorous has replied

Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 108 of 372 (771679)
10-28-2015 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Greatest I am
10-28-2015 9:06 AM


Re: French ban on burqas
-double post-
Edited by Blue Jay, : double post

-Blue Jay, Ph.D.*
*Yeah, it's real
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Greatest I am, posted 10-28-2015 9:06 AM Greatest I am has not replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 109 of 372 (771680)
10-28-2015 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Blue Jay
10-28-2015 12:49 PM


Re: French ban on burqas
Blue Jay
"before we pass a law, we should make sure there is pretty good evidence that the benefits of forced conformity will outweigh the detriments."
Indeed. That is what surveys and discussions and debates do, --- both for Muslims who should be heard and for non-Muslims as well.
If the link in the O.P., and the Muslim women in it are correct, statistics will fall on my side of the argument.
If not, Canadians will have to tolerate slave designating garb on our streets.
------
GIA writes:
Democracy is the tyranny of the majority.
Blue Jay writes
...which we all agree is a bad thing, right?
----------
No.
Laws have to be and should all be firmly and tyrannically enforced otherwise enforcement would become arbitrary.
If that were to happen, respect for law enforcement, police and law makers would disappear and would likely be replaced with vigilantism.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Blue Jay, posted 10-28-2015 12:49 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Blue Jay, posted 10-28-2015 1:26 PM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 115 by Blue Jay, posted 10-28-2015 1:28 PM Greatest I am has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 110 of 372 (771681)
10-28-2015 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Greatest I am
10-28-2015 12:50 PM


Greatest I am writes:
The majority will rule and so far my side looks to be ahead as most recognize that Islam is quite a misogynistic and immoral religion.
The majority DID rule in Canada and booted out the only party that agrees with you.
Greatest I am writes:
The left wing is not nearly as evil as the right wing and it is a shame that some few on the left will have to be restricted to insure the freedoms of the many.
That's the antithesis of democracy. We have to protect the rights of minorities because in the end we're all a minority of one.
In Message 31 you quoted Niemoller:
quote:
"First they came for the Jews, but I did nothing because I'm not a Jew. Then they came for the socialists, but I did nothing because I'm not a socialist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I did nothing because I'm not a Catholic. Finally, they came for me, but by then there was no one left to help me."
"They" is you. You are coming for the Muslims. Hopefully "we" will not make the same mistake that Niemoller lamented by failing to protect them from you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Greatest I am, posted 10-28-2015 12:50 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Greatest I am, posted 10-28-2015 1:08 PM ringo has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 111 of 372 (771682)
10-28-2015 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Omnivorous
10-28-2015 12:52 PM


Re: Have to control those women to free them
Omnivorous
"holy me and evil thee"
Are you saying that you do not believe in equality and that just because you think you are in the majority that that makes you moral?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Omnivorous, posted 10-28-2015 12:52 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Omnivorous, posted 10-28-2015 5:59 PM Greatest I am has not replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 112 of 372 (771683)
10-28-2015 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by ringo
10-28-2015 1:04 PM


ringo
"We have to protect the rights of minorities because in the end we're all a minority of one."
So you want to protect the rights of Muslim men to oppress and basically own their wives and daughters and force them to wear what he decides.
Ok.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by ringo, posted 10-28-2015 1:04 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by ringo, posted 10-28-2015 1:11 PM Greatest I am has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 113 of 372 (771684)
10-28-2015 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Greatest I am
10-28-2015 1:08 PM


Greatest I am writes:
So you want to protect the rights of Muslim men to oppress and basically own their wives and daughters and force them to wear what he decides.
I want to protect the rights of Muslim WOMEN to wear what THEY decide. I quoted a woman who WANTS to wear they hijab but YOU would prevent her.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Greatest I am, posted 10-28-2015 1:08 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Greatest I am, posted 10-28-2015 1:30 PM ringo has replied

Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 114 of 372 (771685)
10-28-2015 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Greatest I am
10-28-2015 1:00 PM


Re: French ban on burqas
Hi, GIA.
Take a minute to review the conversation so far:
GIA writes:
Democracy is the tyranny of the majority.
Blue Jay writes:
...which we all agree is a bad thing, right?
GIA writes:
No.
Laws have to be and should all be firmly and tyrannically enforced...
And then you turn around and make this comment to Ringo:
GIA writes:
Are you saying that you do not believe in equality and that just because you think you are in the majority that that makes you moral?
You clearly advocate majority rule for societal decisions, yet you also express the sentiment that majority rule might not always be moral.
Extrapolating from this set of comments, one would conclude that you do not believe societal decisions should be based on morality, which would beg the question of why "slave garb" represents a legally actionable moral issue for you.
I think the more likely interpretation is that you're simply being completely irrational on purpose.

-Blue Jay, Ph.D.*
*Yeah, it's real
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Greatest I am, posted 10-28-2015 1:00 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Greatest I am, posted 10-28-2015 1:33 PM Blue Jay has replied

Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 115 of 372 (771686)
10-28-2015 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Greatest I am
10-28-2015 1:00 PM


Re: French ban on burqas
Hi, GIA.
Take a minute to review the conversation so far:
GIA writes:
Democracy is the tyranny of the majority.
Blue Jay writes:
...which we all agree is a bad thing, right?
GIA writes:
No.
Laws have to be and should all be firmly and tyrannically enforced...
And then you turn around and make this comment to Ringo:
GIA writes:
Are you saying that you do not believe in equality and that just because you think you are in the majority that that makes you moral?
You clearly advocate majority rule for societal decisions, yet you also express the sentiment that majority rule might not always be moral.
Extrapolating from this set of comments, one would conclude that you do not believe societal decisions should be based on morality, which would beg the question of why "slave garb" represents a legally actionable moral issue for you.
I think the more likely interpretation is that you're simply being completely irrational on purpose.

-Blue Jay, Ph.D.*
*Yeah, it's real
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Greatest I am, posted 10-28-2015 1:00 PM Greatest I am has not replied

Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2369 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


Message 116 of 372 (771687)
10-28-2015 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Greatest I am
10-28-2015 12:23 PM


Re: Pajama Bottoms at the bottom of the style barrel
In a sense, we are all slaved to the law of the land and the state gives us all equality under the law. That equality is what I wish to replace the oppression of Muslim women with.
Equality under the laws also means that a woman can choose whatever she wants to wear even if you don't like it. We have law against discrimination and oppression.
You do believe in equality. Right?
Yes, it's sad that you don't though...
Do Muslim women deserve the freedom from oppression that the state gives you?
They're already free from it in Canada. Sorry, better luck next time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Greatest I am, posted 10-28-2015 12:23 PM Greatest I am has not replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 117 of 372 (771688)
10-28-2015 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by ringo
10-28-2015 1:11 PM


ringo
Every law has people on either side of it and every law discriminates negatively against one of the sides.
There are men who want the right to be pedophiles.
Shall we protect their right to be and repeal the laws against it?
No and I hope you agree, but you might remember the Afghan rape law that is just a step above the forced wearing of certain garb.
Women are being assaulted as we speak by free women in Canada and elsewhere who are incensed by the garb in question. Shall we just allow that abuse of Muslim women to continue along with the slavery that that garb denotes?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by ringo, posted 10-28-2015 1:11 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Bliyaal, posted 10-28-2015 3:00 PM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 128 by ringo, posted 10-29-2015 11:45 AM Greatest I am has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 118 of 372 (771689)
10-28-2015 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Blue Jay
10-28-2015 1:26 PM


Re: French ban on burqas
Blue Jay
Out of context as you are mixing two trains of thought.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Blue Jay, posted 10-28-2015 1:26 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Blue Jay, posted 10-28-2015 2:13 PM Greatest I am has replied

Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


(1)
Message 119 of 372 (771691)
10-28-2015 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Greatest I am
10-28-2015 1:33 PM


Re: French ban on burqas
Hi, GIA.
GIA writes:
Out of context as you are mixing two trains of thought.
You took a hardliner "majority rules" stance against me, and then pulled out "the majority is not always right" against Ringo.
You made bare, unelaborated appeals to two opposite principles to support your position. Clearly, this tells me that you are not actually a hardliner "majority rules" guy, which makes me suspect that you haven't been debating honestly with me.
In reality, both of us seem to recognize that neither a strict "majority rules" or a loose anarchy is desirable: the best system of governance should strike a balance between enforced conformity for the sake of order, and accepted diversity for the sake of morality.
Here's what I see:
On one hand, burqa bans have some strong rhetorical appeal and some unsubstantiated claims about maybe, possibly, indirectly benefiting a particular social cause.
On the other hand, burqa bans seem to make another segment of the population just as unhappy, and create additional logistical strains on police forces.
In my judgment, it seems highly unlikely to result in a net-positive effect.

-Blue Jay, Ph.D.*
*Yeah, it's real
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Greatest I am, posted 10-28-2015 1:33 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Greatest I am, posted 10-28-2015 5:37 PM Blue Jay has replied

Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2369 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


Message 120 of 372 (771693)
10-28-2015 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Greatest I am
10-28-2015 1:30 PM


There are men who want the right to be pedophiles.
Niqab = Pedophilia. I'll have to remember that.
Can you elaborate? The pedophile hurts the the child he uses for his desires. How does the niqab hurt the woman who choose to wear it? You're like the fundamentalists when they say that gay marriage = making pedophilia legal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Greatest I am, posted 10-28-2015 1:30 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Greatest I am, posted 10-28-2015 6:23 PM Bliyaal has replied

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