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Author Topic:   Is it moral for God to punish us?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 49 of 145 (771358)
10-25-2015 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by GDR
10-24-2015 10:47 PM


Who raised Jesus?
Jesus didn't resurrect Himself. It was God who resurrected Him
I've always understood that scripture shows Father, Son and Holy Spirit all raised Him from the dead. One scripture verse showing that He raised Himself is:
John 2:19:
"Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up"
He was speaking of his body.
Another is John 10:17-18
I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.
Here's a page of Bible.org that lays it all out:
God the Father raised Jesus (Acts 2:24, 32; 3:15, 26; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30, 33, 34, 37).
◦ God raised Him up again (Rom. 4:24; 6:4 [through the glory of the Father]); 10:9; 1 Cor. 6:14; Gal. 1:1; Col. 2:12).
◦ The Holy Spirit is somehow involved in the resurrection of Jesus:
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised
Romans 1:4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,
◦ The Son Himself lays down His life and takes it up again John 10:17-18
It seems as though the answer is that all of the Trinity is involved in the Resurrection.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by GDR, posted 10-24-2015 10:47 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by GDR, posted 10-25-2015 7:04 PM Faith has replied
 Message 55 by Greatest I am, posted 10-26-2015 9:40 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 51 of 145 (771409)
10-25-2015 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by GDR
10-25-2015 7:04 PM


Re: Who raised Jesus?
Hi Faith. Put the word raised into a word search in an online Bible and see just how many times it says that God raised Jesus.
Yes, and the quote I gave showed the great preponderance of quotes to that effect. But that doesn't make a difference to someone who believes in the Trinity, you know.
How do you explain Jesus praying in Gethsemane to not have to go through with what He knew lay ahead of Him in Jerusalem. Just who was He praying to? Himself?
Ah GDR, even if you don't believe in the Trinity you really ought to understand it better than this. Jesus as a man -- and as Son too -- was subordinate in rank to God, but that doesn't change the fact that He was God the Son, equal in SUBSTANCE to the Father and the Holy Spirit. As Man He prayed to God, He was completely in our place when it comes to suffering.
There are scriptures that show the difference in rank and scriptures that show the equality of divine nature, both. The scriptural basis for the Trinity has been presented here in great detail on more than one thread. I'll present it again if you want me to.
If you want to understand Jesus' divinity read Daniel 7 where the Son of Man is presented to The Ancient of Days.
I do understand Jesus' divinity and you really should quote or explain that sort of reference instead of requiring me to go there.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 50 by GDR, posted 10-25-2015 7:04 PM GDR has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 56 of 145 (771457)
10-26-2015 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Greatest I am
10-26-2015 9:40 AM


Re: Who raised Jesus?
Gnostic stuff just sounds like a lot of pseudophilosophical babble, silly sophistries. Nothing to do with the spirit of scripture given by God.
Just as a matter of fact, Jesus said to seek the Kingdom of God, not God Himself. Perhaps a nitpick but I couldn't remember Him saying that and He didn't. However, He IS God so seeking God would include seeking Him.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Greatest I am, posted 10-26-2015 9:40 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Greatest I am, posted 10-27-2015 8:26 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 59 of 145 (771609)
10-27-2015 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Greatest I am
10-27-2015 8:26 AM


Re: Who raised Jesus?
As I said, and I repeat: Gnostic stuff just sounds like a lot of pseudophilosophical babble, silly sophistries.
The gnostic words imputed to Jesus simply are not Jesus. His sheep hear His voice and will not follow a fake Jesus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Greatest I am, posted 10-27-2015 8:26 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by kbertsche, posted 10-28-2015 12:07 AM Faith has replied
 Message 62 by Greatest I am, posted 10-28-2015 9:25 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 65 by ringo, posted 10-28-2015 11:59 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 61 of 145 (771614)
10-28-2015 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by kbertsche
10-28-2015 12:07 AM


Re: Who raised Jesus?
The difference is obvious -- to us, but apparently not to some here, such as GIA for sure, PaulK I think, and Dr. A. Something about ears to hear I suppose.

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 Message 60 by kbertsche, posted 10-28-2015 12:07 AM kbertsche has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Greatest I am, posted 10-28-2015 9:37 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 66 of 145 (771697)
10-28-2015 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Greatest I am
10-28-2015 9:37 AM


Re: Who raised Jesus?
Obviously you trust in your own personal interpretation of everything and think I ought to as well. The gnostic gospels are clearly silly made-up stuff, as a comparison with the Bible should show a fair-minded judge, that's why I reject them. I could write my own philosophy if that's all it takes, but I prefer to trust a revelation I can tell is honest narrative and inspired by God even if it says some things I wouldn't put in my own philosophy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Greatest I am, posted 10-28-2015 9:37 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by ringo, posted 10-29-2015 12:13 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 68 by Greatest I am, posted 10-29-2015 2:46 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 69 of 145 (771778)
10-29-2015 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Greatest I am
10-29-2015 2:46 PM


Re: Who raised Jesus?
Total non sequitur.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Greatest I am, posted 10-29-2015 2:46 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Greatest I am, posted 10-30-2015 9:13 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 71 of 145 (771826)
10-30-2015 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Greatest I am
10-30-2015 9:13 AM


Re: Who raised Jesus?
I didn't run from anything. It's a non sequitur. Totally unrelated to what I said. Apples and oranges. "A fair-minded judge" refers to any fair-minded person who reads the gnostic gospels and sees that they are fiction and completely inferior writing compared with the Bible.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Greatest I am, posted 10-30-2015 9:13 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Greatest I am, posted 11-01-2015 11:16 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 75 of 145 (771949)
11-01-2015 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Greatest I am
11-01-2015 11:16 AM


Re: Who raised Jesus?
A fair-minded comparison shows the gnostic texts to be fiction, of a pretty obvious and silly kind, and the Bible texts to be historical accounts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Greatest I am, posted 11-01-2015 11:16 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Greatest I am, posted 11-01-2015 11:55 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 79 of 145 (771955)
11-01-2015 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Greatest I am
11-01-2015 11:55 AM


Re: Who raised Jesus?
GIA,
I know what I believe and why I believe it. I dispensed with Gnosticism early in my study of religions, that finally got me to Bible Protestantism. Friends gave me books about Gnosticism hoping to dissuade me from the direction they could see I was going. The truth is not in the gnostic direction.
I don't know why everyone makes a big deal out of a talking snake. God also had a donkey speak. Nobody claims such things are natural, they are special situations and God can certainly do such things. Silly to object to them. Jesus walking on the water, all that is historical.
The spirit John is writing of is not the spirit WORLD which is Satan's domain, it's the human spirit that has been regenerated through Jesus' death on our behalf so that the communication between God and man that Adam and Eve lost can be resumed. It's important to learn how to discern the difference between satanic spirit and God's spirit.
You read the passages you quote with a spin that is not orthodox. I certainly know those passages and how to understand them, it's odd that you would think your interpretation is new to me. So many people say to trust the Bible who really mean read it they way they do, as if their way is the only way.
Things you've already said many times show you to have a mindset I reject completely and have no hope of affecting.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Greatest I am, posted 11-01-2015 11:55 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Greatest I am, posted 11-01-2015 12:26 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 80 of 145 (771956)
11-01-2015 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Greatest I am
11-01-2015 12:14 PM


The Biblical canon was determined by the usage of the many early churches through their spiritual discernment of which writings were inspired. They rejected writings that did not have the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, which they had the ability to judge because they had the Holy Spirit in them. Over time the collection of books judged as inspired by the various churches became clearer, although there was always some uncertainty about some of the books. Eventually after many years the canon came together as the books most often judged inspired by the churches. There was no conspiracy, which is what I suppose you are implying.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 82 of 145 (771958)
11-01-2015 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Greatest I am
11-01-2015 12:26 PM


Re: Who raised Jesus?
The single eye is the eye fixed on God instead of wavering between desire for God and earthly desires.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Greatest I am, posted 11-01-2015 12:26 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Greatest I am, posted 11-01-2015 12:39 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 84 of 145 (771960)
11-01-2015 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Greatest I am
11-01-2015 12:39 PM


Re: Who raised Jesus?
The sin nature or fallen nature we all inherit from our first father Adam.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Greatest I am, posted 11-01-2015 12:39 PM Greatest I am has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 124 of 145 (772252)
11-11-2015 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Dr Adequate
11-11-2015 1:35 AM


Re: More Gnock Gnock Jokes
Has Christ ever said anything that could be questioned?
"Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
Questioned on what basis?
That spiritual ignorami have no idea what he was talking about?
That the personal experience was not reported by those who witnessed it?
That the hint of it in the transfiguration that occurred soon after isn't sufficient for spiritual ignorami?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Pressie, posted 11-11-2015 8:07 AM Faith has replied
 Message 127 by Greatest I am, posted 11-11-2015 8:42 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 128 of 145 (772260)
11-11-2015 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Pressie
11-11-2015 8:07 AM


Re: More Gnock Gnock Jokes
You assume Jesus was talking about the final coming of the Kingdom but since that didn't happen we know that is not what he was talking about. The statement appears in three of the gospels and those were used by all the churches well past the death of the apostles, which wouldn't have occurred if that statement was understood to refer to the final coming of the Kingdom of God.
It may have referred to the fullness of the realization of the gospel when the Holy Spirit was given, when the apostles themselves possessed the Kingdom of God, or even to Jesus' appearance in His glorified body after the resurrection, or even in a limited sense to the experience of the Transfiguration witnessed six days after Jesus said it, by Peter, James and John.
It makes no sense to read it to mean he was referring to the final coming of the Kingdom.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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