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Author Topic:   Are religions manmade and natural or supernaturally based?
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 211 of 511 (772034)
11-03-2015 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Straggler
11-03-2015 2:30 AM


Re: ICANT,
Hi Straggler,
Strggler writes:
Firstly - How do you know that this law applies prior to T=0?
Because it applies after T=0.
Straggler writes:
Secondly - In your mind is the same true of all the laws of physics or just this particular one? For example - Does the second law of thermodynamics apply prior to T=0 as well as after, in your mind?
Why wouldn't it apply.
Oh I know you believe that the universe would be a frozen mass by now.
If you have a supernatural power that can supply enough energy and mass to produce everything we see in the universe today that entity could add energy any time it was or is needed.
A supernatural power could cause a previous universe to melt with fervent heat (which Peter tells us will happen again in the future and science agrees with him) and then have it produce a universe just like we have today. Oh I forgot that is the bounce theory.
That supernatural power could provide a vacuum where two branes could collide and create a universe just like we live in. Oh I forgot that is string theory.
That supernatural power could provide a vacuum where Hartley/Hawking's instanton could pop into existence and create a universe just like the one we live in.
Existence has to be in order for T=0 + a nano second to ever exist.
You have a favorite example you like to use about the universe being like a balloon. I have been told by you and others that the universe at the earliest point we know anything was expanding like a balloon.
But no one seems to remember the balloon has something to expand into. I noticed one poster raised the question into what the universe is expanding?
If you had a balloon that could get really large inside of a room and you could keep causing that balloon to expand after awhile the room would be full. If you could keep causing it to expand it would not be long before the windows would break open, then the doors, But if you could add enough air the balloon would eventually burst the room. So that balloon has to have existence in which to expand.
The universe has to have existence in which to expand or it would be the same size it was at T=0.
The existence of the universe requires a supernatural power to exist.
I will continue to call that supernatural power God.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Straggler, posted 11-03-2015 2:30 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Straggler, posted 11-03-2015 6:34 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 213 by AZPaul3, posted 11-03-2015 6:37 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 214 by Omnivorous, posted 11-03-2015 7:25 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 232 by ringo, posted 11-04-2015 11:04 AM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(2)
Message 212 of 511 (772035)
11-03-2015 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by ICANT
11-03-2015 5:52 PM


Re: ICANT,
IC writes:
Because it applies after T=0
We could say the same about all the laws of physics we observe. Laws of motion. Conservation laws. Second law of thermodynamics. Etc.
So rather than the laws of nature we observe being a property of our universe you have somehow decided that they all existed prior to the existence of our universe.
Is that correct? Or is it just conservation of mass and energy you think predates our universe and not the others? Are you just picking and choosing the ones you think support your ideas and ignoring the rest?
For example - What state of entropy would an eternal entity find itself in? As a clue you yourself talked about this in Message 120

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by ICANT, posted 11-03-2015 5:52 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by ICANT, posted 11-03-2015 11:51 PM Straggler has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 213 of 511 (772036)
11-03-2015 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by ICANT
11-03-2015 5:52 PM


Re: ICANT,
The existence of the universe requires a supernatural power to exist.
No, it does not. The processes that brought about what we refer to as our universe could well have been quite natural. We just don't know what they are ... yet.
A supernatural power could cause a previous universe to melt with fervent heat (which Peter tells us will happen again in the future and science agrees with him) and then have it produce a universe just like we have today.
Or, it could happen quite naturally without any supernatural.
That supernatural power could provide a vacuum where two branes could collide and create a universe just like we live in.
Or, it could happen quite naturally without any supernatural.
That supernatural power could provide a vacuum where Hartley/Hawking's instanton could pop into existence and create a universe just like the one we live in.
Or, it could happen quite naturally without any supernatural.
Existence has to be in order for T=0 + a nano second to ever exist.
And water has to be in order for a pond to exist. All we know at this time is that this universe as we see it has to exist because we are here experiencing it. We do not know if anything else is required to exist to have started it or to keep it going. We don't know.
I noticed one poster raised the question into what the universe is expanding?
We don't know. We don't know if this universe expanding into something is a viable concept. Here's a brain fart for you. We don't know if what we see as expansion isn't really everything getting really really small around us. It would look the same from our perspective wouldn't it.
The universe has to have existence in which to expand or it would be the same size it was at T=0.
So who's to say it isn't the same size? Who's to say our perspective is the reality? If everything is shrinking around us how could we tell the difference from an expansion? Wrap your mind around that one. We don't know.
The existence of the universe requires a supernatural power to exist.
No, it does not. The processes that brought about what we refer to as our universe could well have been quite natural. We just don't know what they are ... yet.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by ICANT, posted 11-03-2015 5:52 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-03-2015 9:43 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 217 by ICANT, posted 11-03-2015 11:41 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 214 of 511 (772037)
11-03-2015 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by ICANT
11-03-2015 5:52 PM


Re: ICANT,
ICANT writes:
A supernatural power could cause a previous universe to melt with fervent heat (which Peter tells us will happen again in the future and science agrees with him) and then have it produce a universe just like we have today.
Which science would that be?

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by ICANT, posted 11-03-2015 5:52 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by ICANT, posted 11-03-2015 10:52 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 215 of 511 (772039)
11-03-2015 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by AZPaul3
11-03-2015 6:37 PM


Re: ICANT,
We don't know if what we see as expansion isn't really everything getting really really small around us. It would look the same from our perspective wouldn't it.
You are a really bad man!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by AZPaul3, posted 11-03-2015 6:37 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 216 of 511 (772041)
11-03-2015 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Omnivorous
11-03-2015 7:25 PM


Re: ICANT,
Hi Omnivorous,
Omnivorous writes:
Which science would that be?
The one that tells us the universe is going to collapse.
Oh I know that everyone does not believe that.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Omnivorous, posted 11-03-2015 7:25 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 217 of 511 (772042)
11-03-2015 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by AZPaul3
11-03-2015 6:37 PM


Re: ICANT,
Hi AZPaul3,
AZPaul3 writes:
No, it does not. The processes that brought about what we refer to as our universe could well have been quite natural. We just don't know what they are ... yet.
Then you should not have any problem showing where the energy and mass came from that our universe was formed from.
It had to exist as it could not be created.
Or it had to be supplied by a supernatural power.
AZPaul3 writes:
And water has to be in order for a pond to exist. All we know at this time is that this universe as we see it has to exist because we are here experiencing it. We do not know if anything else is required to exist to have started it or to keep it going. We don't know.
And if there was no water no pond would exist. And if there was no existence neither would exist.
Just as if there is no energy and mass source the universe will not exist.
AZPaul3 writes:
We don't know. We don't know if this universe expanding into something is a viable concept. Here's a brain fart for you. We don't know if what we see as expansion isn't really everything getting really really small around us. It would look the same from our perspective wouldn't it.
You probably right.
The distance between most galaxies and our galaxy is red shifted according to what we see.
But we could very well be in a contracting stage and the blue shifted light from the galaxies just has not reached us at the present.
The Andromeda Galaxy is blue shifted now. And we will collide one day.
AZPaul3 writes:
So who's to say it isn't the same size? Who's to say our perspective is the reality? If everything is shrinking around us how could we tell the difference from an expansion? Wrap your mind around that one. We don't know.
And we could be a brain in a jar sitting on a shelf in some lab.
AZPaul3 writes:
No, it does not. The processes that brought about what we refer to as our universe could well have been quite natural. We just don't know what they are ... yet.
Can energy and mass be created from and in non existence? Remember your pond having to have water to exist.
So without a source for energy and mass the universe would not exist.
Alan Guth proposed inflation could be used to cause the universe to create it's own energy and mass.
But the universe does exist.
That requires a supernatural power to supply that energy and mass.
Every hypothesis that has been put forth requires existence to exist and a source of energy and mass for the universe to exist.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by AZPaul3, posted 11-03-2015 6:37 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Omnivorous, posted 11-04-2015 12:07 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 233 by AZPaul3, posted 11-04-2015 4:29 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 218 of 511 (772043)
11-03-2015 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by Straggler
11-03-2015 6:34 PM


Re: ICANT,
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
For example - What state of entropy would an eternal entity find itself in? As a clue you yourself talked about this in Message 120
Why are you trying to make a supernatural power into a natural power?
A supernatural power would be the one who constructed the laws that govern the universe.
Why would that supernatural power make itself into a natural power subject to the laws it made?
You have just as hard a time understanding supernatural power as you do non existence.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Straggler, posted 11-03-2015 6:34 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by Straggler, posted 11-06-2015 9:28 AM ICANT has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 219 of 511 (772044)
11-04-2015 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by ICANT
11-03-2015 11:41 PM


Re: ICANT,
ICANT writes:
Every hypothesis that has been put forth requires existence to exist and a source of energy and mass for the universe to exist.
You can say that a thousand tiimes, and it still won't be true.
In the above quote, it's not even a scientific matter: as a simple fact of plain text, there are hypotheses that do not stipulate either your existential tautology or a "source" for energy and mass.
So why bother? You've proven unable to report scientific theories accurately, and you're only using them as a platform to insist on the supernatural anyway. Invariably, ineluctably, your statements and replies will boil down to "Because God."
Just say so upfront and don't be cute. Stop abusing science like a redheaded step-child. Pisses me off.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by ICANT, posted 11-03-2015 11:41 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 220 of 511 (772045)
11-04-2015 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by Tangle
11-03-2015 2:08 PM


Re: Where time is it?
Hi Tangle,
Tangle writes:
At some point the simplest of concepts just go critical on you. Science glibly says that the universe is expanding. Well ok, but what into?
A good question.
Don't expect a good answer as the common belief here is that there is nothing outside of the universe. It is self contained.
But I like you seem to believe the universe has to be expanding into something. I'll call that something existence. Because if it was not expanding into something it would still be the size it was at T=0. If there was no existence to expand into the universe could not expand. That means the universe would not exist.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Tangle, posted 11-03-2015 2:08 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Tangle, posted 11-04-2015 3:29 AM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 221 of 511 (772048)
11-04-2015 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by New Cat's Eye
11-03-2015 9:45 AM


Re: ICANT,
Hi Cat,
Cat writes:
If the Big Bang Theory requires the Universe to have a beginning to exist, then there would be a point in time where the Universe did not exist. The Big Bang says the opposite of that: The Universe has existed at all points in time.
What points in time are you referring too?
Are you referring to the time we can tell by looking at our watch which is determined by rotation of the earth in relation to the sun?
Or are you referring imaginary time?
So is it real time or imaginary time?
Stephen Hawking writes:
It seems that Quantum theory, on the other hand, can predict how the universe will begin. Quantum theory introduces a new idea, that of imaginary time. Imaginary time may sound like science fiction, and it has been brought into Doctor Who. But nevertheless, it is a genuine scientific concept. One can picture it in the following way. One can think of ordinary, real, time as a horizontal line. On the left, one has the past, and on the right, the future. But there's another kind of time in the vertical direction. This is called imaginary time, because it is not the kind of time we normally experience. But in a sense, it is just as real, as what we call real time.
If space and imaginary time are indeed like the surface of the Earth, there wouldn't be any singularities in the imaginary time direction, at which the laws of physics would break down. And there wouldn't be any boundaries, to the imaginary time space-time, just as there aren't any boundaries to the surface of the Earth. This absence of boundaries means that the laws of physics would determine the state of the universe uniquely, in imaginary time. But if one knows the state of the universe in imaginary time, one can calculate the state of the universe in real time. One would still expect some sort of Big Bang singularity in real time. So real time would still have a beginning. But one wouldn't have to appeal to something outside the universe, to determine how the universe began. Instead, the way the universe started out at the Big Bang would be determined by the state of the universe in imaginary time. Thus, the universe would be a completely self-contained system.
The page you were looking for doesn't exist (404)
So imaginary time is invented to remove the need for an outside supernatural power.
Inflation was invented to provide the energy and mass in a zero energy universe to produce all the energy and mass required to create the universe, as well as plug several holes in the BBT theory.
God Bess,
Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-03-2015 9:45 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-04-2015 9:35 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 222 of 511 (772050)
11-04-2015 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by New Cat's Eye
11-03-2015 9:35 AM


Re: ICANT,
Hi Cat,
Cat writes:
Because, to exist is to be. If there is not existence, then there is no being. For there to "be non existence" is self-contradicting.
I believe you are beginning to get the point.
Non existence is just that non existence.
But non existence would mean there is no way for us to exist.
There would be no place for the universe to exist.
As you said there would be no being, no space, no time, no vacuum, there would be a complete absence of anything.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-03-2015 9:35 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-04-2015 9:51 AM ICANT has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 223 of 511 (772051)
11-04-2015 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
10-13-2015 7:57 PM


Well, quite obviously, all religions are man-made. Isn't it obvious?
Could some religions be based on actual supernatural entities or other thingees?
Well, yeah. But what then? Everything else from that point on is man-made.
So then, what? Whatever do you expect?
Every theology (well, Christian ones at least) start with some Revelation. OK, so what then?
OK, so we interpret that Revelation. OK. Uh. What? We interpret that Revelation? We limited humans interpret that Revelation?
OK. So we limited fallible humans have interpreted Revelation. What then? OK, so other limited fallibe humans then interpret what we fallible human have interpreted about Revelation. And so on and so forth over so many generations.
After so many generations, different groups adhere to different theologies, all of which are really deviant versions of some original theology.
But in the final analysis, each individual theology is each individual's own misunderstanding of the theology he thought he was trying to follow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 10-13-2015 7:57 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 224 of 511 (772052)
11-04-2015 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Straggler
11-03-2015 2:40 AM


Re: ICANT,
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
Imagine God in the situation you keep referring to of "before T=0". He is sitting there pondering his own existence. "Why does anything, why do I, exist rather than nothing?" he asks himself.
How would God go about finding the answer to that question do you think?
Firstly He would not be thinking in terms of a natural man. He would have to be a supernatural power, Supernatural would mean the supernatural entity would not be subject to any restrictions of any kind.
Regardless as to how many restrictions you would like to put on the supernatural power.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Straggler, posted 11-03-2015 2:40 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Straggler, posted 11-06-2015 9:19 AM ICANT has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 225 of 511 (772053)
11-04-2015 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by ICANT
11-04-2015 12:27 AM


Re: Where time is it?
ICANT writes:
But I like you seem to believe the universe has to be expanding into something.
I doubt you believe anything that I believe ICANT. And in science, what you or I believe is irrelevant anyway.
The point I was making is that it's not possible to have an opinion about these things without also having an advanced understanding of the mathematical concept behind them. They simply do not conform to everyday, common sense analysis. You've grasped hold of this sciency looking equation T=0, with absolutely no concept of what it means.
This is why you, like billions of people before, have hit the brick wall of understanding and solved it by inserting the supernatural. This imaginary thing takes all those difficult T=0 problems away at a stroke.
But it doesn't does it? So far you've failed to tackle the ultimate paradox of the cause of the supernatural being that you've conjured up. To do that you have to invoke the causeless cause. Now that's an even harder concept than your little equation isn't it?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by ICANT, posted 11-04-2015 12:27 AM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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