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Author | Topic: Is it moral for God to punish us? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Greatest I am Member (Idle past 273 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
kbertsche
"The voting and suppression that you mention were post-Constantine, so were fourth century. This is much later. The four canonical gospels had already been distributed, read, and accepted for 200 yers by this time." So the council of Nicaea decided nothing in particular. Ok. If they were accepted as you say, then why did all that scripture burning and murder of those who did not like those 4 gospels happen at all? And if there were no other gospels, why bother forcing the literal interpretation of the 4? If only 4, what are these other gospels? List of Gospels - Wikipedia Here is history and not the fantasy you follow. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&l... RegardsDL
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
"The voting and suppression that you mention were post-Constantine, so were fourth century. This is much later. The four canonical gospels had already been distributed, read, and accepted for 200 yers by this time." So the council of Nicaea decided nothing in particular. Ok That is not what was claimed. What was said was that all of the gospels other than the four accepted ones were written later. You've cited a list of gospels. All that is left is to point to ones that meet the time requirement. Why not do that? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2131 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
PaulK writes:
You raise a good point about Luke 1:1. Was Luke referring to Q? To other collections of sayings? It's hard to tell, but this would be interesting to try to understand. Luke 1:1 talks of many accounts - which can hardly be true if the author knew only of Mark and Matthew (and he may not have known Matthew). We have fragments of the Oxyrnchus 1224 and Egerton Gospels, which have similar dates, and are otherwise unknown. The idea that only the canonical four existed by the early 2nd Century is rather unlikely to be true.
It's possible that a few of the gnostic "gospels" were written before the early second century, but I believe that most were written in the late second century or after. Dr A has mentioned the Gospel of Mary. Wikipedia has some interesting things to say about this:
quote: The Wiki entry on the Gospel of Thomas is also interesting:
quote: In summary, it is very difficult to determine the dates of authorship of these gnostic writings. We don't have the rich body of copies and early written references to these documents that we have for the canonical gospels. And as I've been saying, it is a misnomer to refer to the gnostic writings as "gospels". These Wikipedia entires agree. The term "sayings-gospel" is probably more descriptive and more accurate."Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3
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quote: Luke 1:1 seems to be talking about narratives. (And I would add that Q is proposed on the grounds that Luke did not have access to Matthew, so I would be reluctant to count both) As for sayings, Q is thought to be primarily a collection of sayings, and Papias attributes a collection of sayings to Matthew. So I don't think that disparaging collections of sayings is entirely justified either.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2131 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
PaulK writes:
I completely agree (as I've said earlier) that no-one should disparage collections of sayings. But neither should anyone confuse a collection of sayings with a narrative. They are two different things. As for sayings, Q is thought to be primarily a collection of sayings, and Papias attributes a collection of sayings to Matthew. So I don't think that disparaging collections of sayings is entirely justified either."Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
In summary, it is very difficult to determine the dates of authorship of these gnostic writings. We don't have the rich body of copies and early written references to these documents that we have for the canonical gospels. That's correct. And we must conclude from that fact, that the reasons for excluding those gospels is unlikely to be strongly based on dates of authorship. There must have been other considerations. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 273 days) Posts: 1676 Joined:
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NoNukes
I don't really care when the plagiarized and forged documents that made up the cannon were invented. Myth is myth regardless of when written. The morality of religion is what turns my crank. Not when the myths were invented. RegardsDL
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2131 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
nonukes writes:
But think about this a bit more deeply. Why don't we have a similar rich body of early copies and written references for the gnostic writings? I can see only two explanations; either these gnostic writings had not been written yet, or they were not generally accepted. kbertsche writes:
That's correct. And we must conclude from that fact, that the reasons for excluding those gospels is unlikely to be strongly based on dates of authorship. There must have been other considerations.
In summary, it is very difficult to determine the dates of authorship of these gnostic writings. We don't have the rich body of copies and early written references to these documents that we have for the canonical gospels. By the middle of the second century, the early church fathers had quoted from every book in the New Testament. They accepted and respected these books (including the canonical gospels) as divinely inspired. If the gnostic gospels had been written and generally accepted by this time, we would expect quotes of them as well."Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2131 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined:
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Greatest I Am writes:
Are you claiming that the canonical gospels are plagiarized and forged versions of gnostic writings that came at least a half-century later?!? Do you think the gospel writers had invented time travel?
I don't really care when the plagiarized and forged documents that made up the cannon were invented. Myth is myth regardless of when written. The morality of religion is what turns my crank. Not when the myths were invented. RegardsDL "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
With regard to sayings I don't think there's much confusing them with narratives - aside from the fact there's a spectrum rather than a clear divide. Either a collection of sayings or a largely narrative account can be called a Gospel
quote: Why must we speculate about Luke's sources? Why are the documents represented by the Egerton and Oxyrynchus 1224 fragments otherwise unknown? We don't have much from the 1st or 2nd centuries from either the Gnostic or the orthodox camps in terms of actual manuscripts, and we can be sure that many documents have been completely lost and forgotten.
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 273 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
kbertsche
Some scholars think they might have. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJgvws0ZYUE I see both the canon and all other gospels as attempts to control the thinking of the masses through a best wisdom saying contest. So far I prefer the Gnostic Christian free thinking way as compared to the Christian, you have to think my way, idiocy. To think that wisdom and knowledge of God is only in one plagiarized book is idiocy. That would include the Bible and the Qur'an. Fairy tales hold more wisdom in many cases as compared with gospels which are fairy tales for adults. Those fairy tales mostly came from Sumer and Egypt. 2007-Doc Zone - Pagan Christ 1 of 3 - Vido Dailymotion That is why I prefer to concentrate on the morality of the scripture and not where it is found. RegardsDL
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I don't really care when the plagiarized and forged documents that made up the cannon were invented. Myth is myth regardless of when written. That's fine. My only complaint would be that the arguments you made were offbase. If you really don't care about any of it, then why even delve into the process of canonization? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 273 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
NoNukes
The delving I did was speaking to the 4 main ones and the plethora of others that were rejected. Not the dating. Even the oldest they have are plagiarized so timing them is impossible. Even "Christian" was stolen from what I think was the origins of Gnostic Christianity. Chrestiam. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=r... RegardsDL
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
So far I prefer the Gnostic Christian free thinking way as compared to the Christian, you have to think my way, idiocy. But which way is more logical to God? Christians don't say you have to think their way. They encourage you to think His way.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Pressie Member Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined:
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Phat writes: Thanks for the comment, Kim Jong-un.
Christians don't say you have to think their way. They encourage you to think His way.
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