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Author Topic:   Are religions manmade and natural or supernaturally based?
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 286 of 511 (772270)
11-11-2015 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by ICANT
11-11-2015 10:58 AM


Re: Just to set the record straight
ICANT writes:
Your watch makers only makes watches. The supernatural power created the entire universe. Not just mankind, which makes the comparison no comparison at all.
As I said, the watchmaker analogy was William Paley's from a couple hundred years ago. It's famous, and it illustrates the logic you're using perfectly. Surely you're not ignorant of the watchmaker analogy. The whole reason I used it is because it's familiar to everyone, or so I thought. I figured just calling this famous analogy to your attention would settle the issue, because Paley raised it to make precisely the point you're making.
Admin writes:
That seems pretty clear to me. You don't seem to be claiming to have physical evidence supporting this belief, so discussion should focus on the theological evidence behind it.
There is just as much physical evidence supporting the supernatural power as there is for two branes bumping together in non existence and starting the universe to exist. Or and instanton popping into existence in non existence and creating the universe.
Yes, you're correct, there's no physical evidence that allows us to select between brane collisions or quantum fluctuations or any other theorized cause. That's why I was trying to make sure you're arguing from a theological standpoint. If you are instead arguing from physical evidence (like Faith) then though this is the wrong forum for those kinds of discussions I don't think it would be much of a problem to let an evidence-based discussion continue here.
So are you arguing from theology, or from physical evidence?

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by ICANT, posted 11-11-2015 10:58 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by ICANT, posted 11-11-2015 12:30 PM Admin has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 287 of 511 (772273)
11-11-2015 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by ICANT
11-11-2015 11:39 AM


Re: ICANT,
ICAT writes:
I think all of these would be in the realm of philosophy.
I've really got no interest in what you think about that stuff - you're not remotely qualified to talk about it and in any case it's beyond both of us. I'm happy to accept that we can't and don't know about it - talk of brains etc is interesting speculation for the very few people capable of understanding it.
What do you think a supernatural power would be like? .... So far there has been nothing but a supernatural power proposed as the cause of the beginning to exist of the universe.
There's no point asking an atheist what a supernatural power would look like.......
But you've AGAIN sidestepped the only question I'm interested in hearing you answer - if you think a supernatural power created the universe, what created the supernatural power?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by ICANT, posted 11-11-2015 11:39 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by ICANT, posted 11-11-2015 12:58 PM Tangle has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 288 of 511 (772274)
11-11-2015 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by Admin
11-11-2015 11:29 AM


Re: Just to set the record straight
I know - but at the level of the physics we're talking about, the physical evidence is only capable of being adequately expressed mathematically.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Admin, posted 11-11-2015 11:29 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 289 of 511 (772275)
11-11-2015 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Admin
11-11-2015 11:45 AM


Re: Just to set the record straight
Hi Admin,
Admin writes:
So are you arguing from theology, or from physical evidence?
I have been trying to answer the question asked in the OP.
quote:
Do you think Gods are manmade or do you believe in a supernatural God?
Why do you think that way?
I was very specific and have been throughout my posts that I believe in a supernatural power which I call God. Anyone else is allowed to call that supernatural power anything they desire.
I have been very specific as to why I think the way I do.
Since this is 'Faith and Belief' I see nothing wrong with any argument about what I believe or why I believe it.
In Message 46 I said:
quote:
Now whatever caused the universe to have a beginning to exist from an absence of anything would be a supernatural power.
My conclusions in my very first post in this tread was that whatever caused the universe to have a beginning to exist literally from non existence would be a supernatural power.
There has been no argumentation or alternative cause presented to cause me to change my mind.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Admin, posted 11-11-2015 11:45 AM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by Admin, posted 11-11-2015 12:50 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 290 of 511 (772276)
11-11-2015 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by ICANT
11-11-2015 12:30 PM


Re: Just to set the record straight
ICANT writes:
Admin writes:
So are you arguing from theology, or from physical evidence?
I have been trying to answer the question asked in the OP.
OP's are often points of departure for subtopics, sometimes many different subtopics, and our recent exchange was about a subtopic, not the original question in the OP. It was about your position on the origin of God. You're being evasive again. Please, no more evasions - last warning.
The question was whether you'll be providing support for your beliefs from theology or from physical evidence?

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by ICANT, posted 11-11-2015 12:30 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 291 of 511 (772277)
11-11-2015 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Tangle
11-11-2015 12:08 PM


Re: ICANT,
Hi Tangle,
Tangle writes:
There's no point asking an atheist what a supernatural power would look like.......
First I did not ask what a supernatural power would look like.
I did ask "What do you think a supernatural power would be like?"
I am not even sure we could see a supernatural power.
But I believe we could have an idea what the attributes of such a supernatural power would possess.
Tangle writes:
But you've AGAIN sidestepped the only question I'm interested in hearing you answer - if you think a supernatural power created the universe, what created the supernatural power?
What part of
"A supernatural power would not require a creation as that supernatural power would have all power." Message 277
Do you not understand?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Tangle, posted 11-11-2015 12:08 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Tangle, posted 11-11-2015 1:53 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 292 of 511 (772278)
11-11-2015 1:48 PM


Hi,
In Message 290Admin said we had been discussing the origin of God as a subtopic.
There is no argument for the origin of God.
He either exists or He does not exist.
Theology does not argue the origin of God. It states His existence.
Neither do I argue the origin of God. I accept His Word.
Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM:
The Hebrew word translated AM means exist.
It makes no difference what physical evidence I might have that God does exist no one on this site but a born again believer would accept any evidence I presented.
So that ends this argument as far as I am concerned.
Now if you want to discuss why I believe He exists then I would be glad to address that issue.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by Pressie, posted 11-12-2015 5:48 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 304 by Greatest I am, posted 11-12-2015 7:44 AM ICANT has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 293 of 511 (772279)
11-11-2015 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by ICANT
11-11-2015 12:58 PM


Re: ICANT,
ICANT writes:
What part of
"A supernatural power would not require a creation as that supernatural power would have all power." Do you not understand
That would be all of it.
All you've done is invoke the uncaused cause. Goddit. Turtles all the way down. Fine, end of discussion. It's just special pleading, "your argument requires a cause, mine doesn't"

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by ICANT, posted 11-11-2015 12:58 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by GDR, posted 11-11-2015 4:08 PM Tangle has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 294 of 511 (772286)
11-11-2015 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Tangle
11-11-2015 1:53 PM


Re: ICANT,
Tangle writes:
All you've done is invoke the uncaused cause. Goddit. Turtles all the way down. Fine, end of discussion. It's just special pleading, "your argument requires a cause, mine doesn't"
Actually it is more so the other way around. Your position requires an infinite stream of endless processes. Evolution is a process that required a process to allow it to begin, which required a process which required....., or in other words it's turtles all the way down.
Various scientific theories involve multiple dimensions of time. Multiple dimensions of time could conceivably mean that one could move around in time infinitely just as we move around infinitely in our 3 spatial dimensions. This could allow for an infinite god thus negating the need for cause.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Tangle, posted 11-11-2015 1:53 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by Tangle, posted 11-11-2015 4:24 PM GDR has replied
 Message 296 by 1.61803, posted 11-11-2015 4:31 PM GDR has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 295 of 511 (772287)
11-11-2015 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by GDR
11-11-2015 4:08 PM


Re: ICANT,
GDR writes:
Actually it is more so the other way around. Your position requires an infinite stream of endless processes.
'We' don't have a position. 'We' are struggling to understand such things. On a personal level, I know I will never understand what the mathematicians are saying. If I have a faith, it's that we will never know. There's no reason at all why we should be able to. We've come a long way in a short time in understanding this but it's merely a hope that we'll have the capacity to get there.
Evolution is a process that required a process to allow it to begin, which required a process which required....., or in other words it's turtles all the way down.
Evolution has absolutely nothing to do with this. Evolution is a mostly understood process that began billions of years after what we regard as the beginning of what we know as the universe. Even you understand and accept that, so why conflate the issues?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by GDR, posted 11-11-2015 4:08 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by GDR, posted 11-11-2015 4:32 PM Tangle has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 296 of 511 (772288)
11-11-2015 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by GDR
11-11-2015 4:08 PM


Re: ICANT,
Hi GDR, I always thought that abiogenesis and evolution were not mutually exclusive. Also the origin of the cosmos has nothing to do with either. Invoking the supernatural is for all intents and purposes is intellectual equivalent of saying "it is what it is".

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by GDR, posted 11-11-2015 4:08 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by GDR, posted 11-11-2015 5:05 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 297 of 511 (772289)
11-11-2015 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Tangle
11-11-2015 4:24 PM


Re: ICANT,
Tangle writes:
Evolution has absolutely nothing to do with this. Evolution is a mostly understood process that began billions of years after what we regard as the beginning of what we know as the universe. Even you understand and accept that, so why conflate the issues?
I'm not. You used the "turtles all the way down" argument and I am simply pointing out that it actually argues more against the simply materialistic view of origins than it does the theistic view. Evolution, no matter how well understood would have to be be just one process at the end of essentially an infinite stream of processes.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Tangle, posted 11-11-2015 4:24 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by Tangle, posted 11-11-2015 5:28 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 298 of 511 (772290)
11-11-2015 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by 1.61803
11-11-2015 4:31 PM


Re: ICANT,
1.61803 writes:
Hi GDR, I always thought that abiogenesis and evolution were not mutually exclusive. Also the origin of the cosmos has nothing to do with either. Invoking the supernatural is for all intents and purposes is intellectual equivalent of saying "it is what it is".
Abiogenesis is necessary for evolution to begin, and there had to be some other process that allowed for abiogenesis, with processes going back to the origin of the cosmos.
We make up our own minds about whether the processes that have led up to sentient beings with an understanding of morality are based on an infinite string of mindless processes or is there an intelligent moral first cause.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by 1.61803, posted 11-11-2015 4:31 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by 1.61803, posted 11-12-2015 10:17 AM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 299 of 511 (772291)
11-11-2015 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by GDR
11-11-2015 4:32 PM


Re: ICANT,
GDR writes:
I'm not. You used the "turtles all the way down" argument and I am simply pointing out that it actually argues more against the simply materialistic view of origins than it does the theistic view.
'Turtles all the way down' is a metaphor for an infinite regression. God made the universe. Who made god? God made god. Who made god? Etc etc etc. It's got nothing to do with evolution.
Evolution, no matter how well understood would have to be be just one process at the end of essentially an infinite stream of processes
Evolution is an understood process. Other processes are other processes, some of which we don't yet understand, some of which we may never understand.
At this point believers just say goddidit. With no other evidence whatsoever. Science just says we don't know. Don't confuse thing that we know with things that we don't.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by GDR, posted 11-11-2015 4:32 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by GDR, posted 11-11-2015 6:32 PM Tangle has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 300 of 511 (772293)
11-11-2015 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by Tangle
11-11-2015 5:28 PM


Re: ICANT,
Tangle writes:
'Turtles all the way down' is a metaphor for an infinite regression. God made the universe. Who made god? God made god. Who made god? Etc etc etc. It's got nothing to do with evolution.
I get that. But the point of the expression is, as you say, about infinite regression. I am using the argument of infinite regression and applying it to a strictly material, universe of mindless origins. It would require an infinite regression of mindless processes to arrive in a world teeming with life, and ultimately sentient life with a sense of morality.
If we are making a case for this world being the result of a moral sentient intelligence then we can get around the argument of infinite regression by theorizing, as science does for other reasons, to postulate the idea of multiple dimensions of time where life can be infinite. Certainly, the idea of multiple dimensions of time is highly theoretical but if science can do it why can't theologians. This of course would give us an understanding of a God who always was and always will be, which negates the need for all those turtles.
Tangle writes:
Science just says we don't know. Don't confuse thing that we know with things that we don't.
Of course, neither one of us know. We have formed our own beliefs based on what we do know, or think we know.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Tangle, posted 11-11-2015 5:28 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by Tangle, posted 11-12-2015 3:25 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 311 by Omnivorous, posted 11-12-2015 6:52 PM GDR has not replied

  
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