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Author Topic:   Earth science curriculum tailored to fit wavering fundamentalists
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2482 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 961 of 1053 (772509)
11-15-2015 6:58 AM


Hugh Miller Debate
Well, this just got interesting.
I've just accepted the opportunity to question/debate Hugh Miller live (online) with my family watching. I have stated that the only topic I'm interested in debating are the famous Carnegie Samples.
The time isn't set up yet (I asked for a few days to get my stuff together). Anyone else interested in watching or engaging is invited to do so.
More later (and I'll have a ton of questions to ask y'all as well).
Could be fun.
JB

Replies to this message:
 Message 962 by PaulK, posted 11-15-2015 7:37 AM ThinAirDesigns has replied
 Message 964 by Admin, posted 11-15-2015 9:04 AM ThinAirDesigns has replied
 Message 968 by Pressie, posted 11-16-2015 6:58 AM ThinAirDesigns has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17849
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 962 of 1053 (772510)
11-15-2015 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 961 by ThinAirDesigns
11-15-2015 6:58 AM


Re: Hugh Miller Debate
Looks like an example of a creationist fraud. Obtaining samples by deception and having them dated despite being warned that they were thoroughly contaminated.
Bradley Lepper's report

This message is a reply to:
 Message 961 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 11-15-2015 6:58 AM ThinAirDesigns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 963 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 11-15-2015 7:41 AM PaulK has not replied

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2482 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 963 of 1053 (772511)
11-15-2015 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 962 by PaulK
11-15-2015 7:37 AM


Re: Hugh Miller Debate
That's exactly what it is. But via email he's halfway convinced my family that it's not true and so they asked if I would debate him.
Certain members of the family are on the fence and leaning my way. I want to use this to lean them even farther.
JB

This message is a reply to:
 Message 962 by PaulK, posted 11-15-2015 7:37 AM PaulK has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13084
From: EvC Forum
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Member Rating: 2.4


Message 964 of 1053 (772515)
11-15-2015 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 961 by ThinAirDesigns
11-15-2015 6:58 AM


Re: Hugh Miller Debate
ThinAirDesigns writes:
The time isn't set up yet (I asked for a few days to get my stuff together). Anyone else interested in watching or engaging is invited to do so.
Yes, but my time availability is spotty. Will this be available as a link so I can see the recap any time? Is this a text debate? Audio? Video? If audio or video, is this something you're any good at? In a technical discussion, can you choose your words at the rate you talk, or only at the rate you type? Do you make good tactical choices on the fly?

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 961 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 11-15-2015 6:58 AM ThinAirDesigns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 965 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 11-15-2015 9:56 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2482 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 965 of 1053 (772517)
11-15-2015 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 964 by Admin
11-15-2015 9:04 AM


Re: Hugh Miller Debate
(from phone so short)
Will be a text debate on a facebook group called "SDA Fight Club Arena" (SDA being Seventh Day Adventist)
The SDA Fight Club is a place where current and former SDAs, and others discuss issues relevant to the church and members past and present. It's moderated to a "attack the idea but not the person" level and has a fair bit of science exchange. It has a higher 'past member' mix than 'current members' but still a fair share of the YEC faithful.
The "Arena" is a separate area where everyone can see an exchange, but only those invited to the exchange can participate - this keeps exchanges on very specific topics cleaner with less side commenting to derail things.
I would LOVE people with more knowledge than I have directly involved in this exchange with Miller and would try to work out logistics to suit that. It's not like it will be of the 'hour format' or anything formal like that ... It could go on for several days as we ask him questions as they come up and he answers them in his own time (just like here).
Like any FB exchange, it is preserved and can be viewed at any time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 964 by Admin, posted 11-15-2015 9:04 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1514 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 966 of 1053 (772521)
11-15-2015 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 965 by ThinAirDesigns
11-15-2015 9:56 AM


Re: Hugh Miller Debate
The "Arena" is a separate area where everyone can see an exchange, but only those invited to the exchange can participate - this keeps exchanges on very specific topics cleaner with less side commenting to derail things.
So it would be like our "The Great Debate" forum. If you provide a link we can run a "peanut gallery" thread to discuss and advise.
And you can invite people to join our peanut gallery, and get some good cross-current trading of information.
Sounds fun.
Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 965 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 11-15-2015 9:56 AM ThinAirDesigns has not replied

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2482 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 967 of 1053 (772555)
11-15-2015 6:51 PM


Material for Hugh Miller exchange.
Sometime early in my time here at CvE, I read everything I could find on the Hugh Miller / Carnegie fiasco. At one point I remember actually seeing an image from the AZ lab that did the testing along with their notations as to the contamination of the sample. I can't find that report anywhere. Does anyone else remember such? Pointers?
Thanks
JB

Replies to this message:
 Message 969 by NoNukes, posted 11-16-2015 12:15 PM ThinAirDesigns has not replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(2)
Message 968 of 1053 (772566)
11-16-2015 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 961 by ThinAirDesigns
11-15-2015 6:58 AM


Re: Hugh Miller Debate
ThinAirDesigns writes:
I've just accepted the opportunity to question/debate Hugh Miller live (online) with my family watching. I have stated that the only topic I'm interested in debating are the famous Carnegie Samples.
From http://www.modernreformation.org/default.php?page=article...
ModernReformation writes:
One of the best ways of making a name for yourself in the scientific community is to challenge a widely held scientific understanding with a strongly defended alternative theory. It is thus of considerable significance that the tens of thousands of geologists worldwide are virtually in complete agreement that the question of the earth's age has been answered: roughly 4.6 billion years.
The agreement is perhaps even more striking in the world of economic geology (oil and mineral exploration) where theories that lead to increased revenue always win, even if philosophically distasteful. Understanding the age of the earth and its layers plays a critical role in natural resource exploration, yet to our knowledge there is not a single oil or mining company anywhere in the world that uses a young-earth model to find or exploit new reserves. Old-earth models work. Young-earth models do not.
So, ask Hugh Miller to open up a mine using his young earth principles and using his hundreds of millions of dollars. I bet he's not going to do that, but he's just going to go on using other people's tithes to speak untruths about what is found in reality. He'll always go on about his unreality; no matter the reality of life.
Hey Hugh, put your money where your mouth is! Do exploration according to a YEC and spend billions on opening a mine according to YEC!
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 961 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 11-15-2015 6:58 AM ThinAirDesigns has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 969 of 1053 (772589)
11-16-2015 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 967 by ThinAirDesigns
11-15-2015 6:51 PM


Re: Material for Hugh Miller exchange.
seeing an image from the AZ lab that did the testing along with their notations as to the contamination of the sample.
I can find images of the AZ lab results with dates, but those images do not include the notations about contamination. The warnings given by the University of Arizona lab about contamination are described in some references but without any images. There may be a note about it in the link that PaulK provided.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 967 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 11-15-2015 6:51 PM ThinAirDesigns has not replied

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2482 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 970 of 1053 (782255)
04-21-2016 4:41 PM


The geological range of the tapeats / redwall
I'm looking for information on the following position posted below related to the geographic range of certain geologic formations.
1: Is this described range true? I find many tapeat maps and the range is generally limited to North America so I assume it's not.
2: Is there some broader (or twisted) definition that would allow the expansion of range (or is it just straight made up)
3: Are such formations defined broadly by common events, or by some 'fingerprint', or ... ??
Thanks:
quote:
Dr. Andrew Snelling, geologist with Answers in Genesis provides the following brief description of the layers exposed in the Grand Canyon. This is part of a series of articles written by Dr. Snelling for the Answers Magazine and can be found at Answers in Genesis .
We find rock layers that can be traced all the way across continentseven between continentsand physical features in those strata indicate they were deposited rapidly. For example, the Tapeats Sandstone and Redwall Limestone of Grand Canyon can be traced across the entire United States, up into Canada, and even across the Atlantic Ocean to England. The chalk beds of England (the white cliffs of Dover) can be traced across Europe into the Middle East and are also found in the Midwest of the United States and in Western Australia.

Replies to this message:
 Message 972 by PaulK, posted 04-21-2016 4:53 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied
 Message 979 by Faith, posted 04-21-2016 6:35 PM ThinAirDesigns has not replied

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2482 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 971 of 1053 (782256)
04-21-2016 4:44 PM


Hugh Miller
BTW, Hugh Miller bailed on the public exchange he had initiallly offered and I described above before it even started.
Apologies for not updating the group on that earlier.
JB

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17849
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 972 of 1053 (782259)
04-21-2016 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 970 by ThinAirDesigns
04-21-2016 4:41 PM


Re: The geological range of the tapeats / redwall
Wikipedia states that the Redwall Limestone is found in Northern Arizona, southeast California, New Mexico, and southern Utah. The Tapeats Sandstone is found in northern Arizona (Grand Canyon), central Arizona, southeast California, southern Nevada, and southeast Utah
So, I don't know what he is talking about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 970 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 04-21-2016 4:41 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 973 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 04-21-2016 5:19 PM PaulK has replied

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2482 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 973 of 1053 (782263)
04-21-2016 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 972 by PaulK
04-21-2016 4:53 PM


Re: The geological range of the tapeats / redwall
The maps I find for the Tapeat show a far greater range than the listed range in Wikipedia, but nothing like Snelling describes. I haven't found anything other than local/regional maps for the redwall.
Edited by ThinAirDesigns, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 972 by PaulK, posted 04-21-2016 4:53 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 974 by PaulK, posted 04-21-2016 5:33 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17849
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 974 of 1053 (782264)
04-21-2016 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 973 by ThinAirDesigns
04-21-2016 5:19 PM


Re: The geological range of the tapeats / redwall
That map - and similar ones - seem to come from Creationist sources (and only Creationist sources), which is a bit of a red flag.. The little investigation that I have done suggests that they are probably including other formations, such as the St Peter Sandstone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 973 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 04-21-2016 5:19 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 975 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 04-21-2016 5:41 PM PaulK has not replied
 Message 977 by edge, posted 04-21-2016 5:54 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 990 by JonF, posted 04-22-2016 8:10 AM PaulK has not replied

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2482 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 975 of 1053 (782265)
04-21-2016 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 974 by PaulK
04-21-2016 5:33 PM


Re: The geological range of the tapeats / redwall
Crap -- yeah, I'm usually more aware of sources than that, but I just right clicked on one in Google images and copied the link.
Sure enough when I look at each of them in Google images, all of that variety are coming from YEC sites.
Thanks -- dropped the ball on that.
I did find this one entertaining for obvious reasons -- WORLDWIDE (in the US):

This message is a reply to:
 Message 974 by PaulK, posted 04-21-2016 5:33 PM PaulK has not replied

  
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