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Author Topic:   Should Canada and the U.S. tolerate an intolerant Islam?
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 127 (772708)
11-17-2015 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by AZPaul3
11-17-2015 10:29 PM


Re: Liberty Island Mini-Mall
As long as we're going to abandon one of our national core values
What core value is that?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by AZPaul3, posted 11-17-2015 10:29 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by xongsmith, posted 11-18-2015 1:49 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 127 (772759)
11-18-2015 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by xongsmith
11-18-2015 1:49 AM


Re: Liberty Island Mini-Mall
Certainly what's written isn't "Give me your wicked, your bigoted, your religious fundamentalists yearning to subjugate the World to theocratic rule based on the violent teachings of a seventh-century warlord, pedophile, etc."

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by xongsmith, posted 11-18-2015 1:49 AM xongsmith has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 127 (772855)
11-19-2015 1:42 PM


Benefits of Islam
Is it worth it to let Muslims into Western lands?
The only way to answer that is to do a cost-benefit analysis of the situation. We've already heard of the potential costs, so maybe we can look at the benefits.
So, what are the benefits of Islam?
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Greatest I am, posted 11-19-2015 2:27 PM Jon has not replied
 Message 69 by ringo, posted 11-21-2015 11:10 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 36 of 127 (772873)
11-19-2015 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Modulous
11-19-2015 3:09 PM


You won't change Islam by letting the victims of Islamism who do not want to support or live under such extreme Islamism - drown.
Are they? Or are they themselves perpetrators who just happen to be dissatisfied with who won/is winning the battle?
Remember our Islam and Multiculturalism threads?
How many British Muslims want Saudi-Arabia-style Sharia? How many deplore homosexuality?
Is it that they don't want to live under extreme Islam, or just that they don't want to live under someone else's extreme Islam but instead under their own?
Fuck off.
I really feel bad for the children. The ones who will grow up to be indoctrinated into a culture of down-right evil that subjugates women, hates freedom and progress, a completely crippled culture with no hope of finding itself at peace with the world of secular enlightenment.
At the same time, we have to look at reality and admit what these children will become so long as the culture of Islam liveswhat some may already be.
We don't need to go killing kids, but we also shouldn't feel responsible for what their culture does to them.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Modulous, posted 11-19-2015 3:09 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Modulous, posted 11-20-2015 9:02 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 127 (772913)
11-20-2015 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by DrJones*
11-20-2015 1:34 PM


Good vs Bad Discrimination
By telling a hunter he can shoot his desired prey (deer) but a Klansman that he cannot shoot his (black people) you are discriminating against the latter.
Now what the fuck is your point?
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by DrJones*, posted 11-20-2015 1:34 PM DrJones* has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 66 of 127 (772955)
11-21-2015 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Modulous
11-20-2015 9:02 AM


You can move those goal posts all you want, Mod, it doesn't change reality or what's already been said.
Your initial claim was that the folks flocking to Europe "... do not want to support or live under such extreme Islamism".
To which I replied that many do, just not the exact version as being practiced.
To which you responded by changing general "extreme Islamism" to "extreme Islamism of ISIS " which, of course, agrees with what I said: the folks don't want to live under ISIS's extreme Islamism - but many do want to live under some version of extreme Islamism.
And it is none but the blind who fail to see that it is this general attitude of Middle Eastern Muslims that is behind so much of the violence in the region: it's a mash-up of extremist ideologies fighting for power with each one subjugating the others in its turn. ISIS rules today; some other may rule in the future.
Not sure what difference it makes, to be honest.
Well, that's the topic of this thread: should we be welcoming intolerant Islam into the West. There are two ways of welcoming Islam, conversion or immigration. We're talking about the latter.
Yes. You tried to find reasons to paint Muslims as intrinsically bad and you resisted any efforts to discuss the reasons why we're in the current climate and what we can do to have the best possible future.
Huh? I don't think Muslims are intrinsically bad. They are human beings who have the same potential to be good, honorable, and compassionate as all other human beings. Islam seems to do a good job suppressing these potentials; hence this thread and the several others on the same topic.
Is it that they don't want to live under extreme Islam, or just that they don't want to live under someone else's extreme Islam but instead under their own?
Does it matter?
Yes, because: this thread.
Tell me - would you rather they were educated in Syria by ISIS or in Sweden by the State school system? Which outcome is more likely to fulfil your prophecy of these kids growing up into a life of extemism?
Then let Sweden educate the kids. Their parents can stay in Syria.
That doesn't change the notion that we should be nice people who try and help civilians fleeing a warzone.
It does if we have good reason to believe those civilians are bringing the warzone with them - or even just the mentality that is largely responsible for it.
There are ways to help that don't involve inviting extremist nutjobs into our borders.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Modulous, posted 11-20-2015 9:02 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Percy, posted 11-21-2015 9:09 AM Jon has replied
 Message 68 by Modulous, posted 11-21-2015 10:59 AM Jon has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 127 (772971)
11-21-2015 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Percy
11-21-2015 9:09 AM


These people have no right to flee?
I never said people haven't a right to flee.
What I have said is we have no obligation to receive such folks and should, given what we know of Muslims in the region be very cautious about importing extreme radicalism of the kind the West has already fought enough wars to get rid of in its own borders.
Today's New York Times (ISIS Wives and Enforcers in Syria Recount Collaboration, Anguish and Escape) describes a pre-ISIS Syria with many progressive and westward-looking residents, e.g.:
quote:
All three belonged to a generation of Syrian women who were leading more independent lives than ever before. They mixed freely with young men, socializing and studying together in a religiously diverse city with relatively relaxed mores.
That, of course, is just an anecdote. If we look at actual evidence (surveys of what people believe) we find things like this bit that Mod kindly pointed out long ago but has been doing a good job of forgetting:
quote:
Modulous in Message 131 in Evil Muslim conspiracy...:
quote:
About eight-in-ten Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan (82% each) endorse the stoning of people who commit adultery; 70% of Muslims in Jordan and 56% of Nigerian Muslims share this view. Muslims in Pakistan and Egypt are also the most supportive of whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery; 82% in Pakistan and 77% in Egypt favor making this type of punishment the law in their countries, as do 65% of Muslims in Nigeria and 58% in Jordan.
When asked about the death penalty for those who leave the Muslim religion, at least three-quarters of Muslims in Jordan (86%), Egypt (84%) and Pakistan (76%) say they would favor making it the law; in Nigeria, 51% of Muslims favor and 46% oppose it. In contrast, Muslims in Lebanon, Turkey and Indonesia largely reject the notion that harsh punishments should be the law in their countries. About three-quarters of Turkish and Lebanese Muslims oppose the stoning of people who commit adultery (77% and 76%, respectively), as does a narrower majority (55%) of Muslims in Indonesia.
The bottom line is: if religiously sanctioned death and mutilation is an extremist position - its a very common one.
Middle-Eastern Muslims are by and large fundamentalists of a nature that makes our own Christian fundamentalists look like kittens.
It's not unreasonable to want to keep their crap out of the West.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Percy, posted 11-21-2015 9:09 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Percy, posted 11-22-2015 8:38 AM Jon has not replied
 Message 84 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 11-24-2015 11:01 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 127 (772972)
11-21-2015 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by ringo
11-21-2015 11:10 AM


Re: Benefits of Islam
Don't go there ringo; remember how stupid you looked last time trying to make that comparison?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by ringo, posted 11-21-2015 11:10 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Percy, posted 11-22-2015 8:40 AM Jon has seen this message but not replied
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 11-22-2015 1:07 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 127 (773046)
11-23-2015 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Modulous
11-20-2015 4:02 PM


The refugees dying in their thousands is more carnage than terrorists have managed to inflict on us in decades of earnest attempts.
Indeed.
Folks dismissive of Islam's intolerance regularly fail to see that those most affected by it are Muslims.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Modulous, posted 11-20-2015 4:02 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Modulous, posted 11-24-2015 8:04 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 127 (773048)
11-23-2015 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by ringo
11-22-2015 1:07 PM


Re: Benefits of Islam
It was shown that your argument makes no sense. It only works if we consider immigrant Muslims as analogous to incoming Europeansi.e., as invaders. And if we view Muslim immigrants this way, our reasons for refusing them entry are even greater.
Meanwhile, I stand by my statement: the immigrants who should have been kept out were us.
Obviously anyone who goes on the Internet and argues that events responsible for their existence should never have taken place is only passing time between bowel movements.
Why should anyone take your nonsense seriously?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 11-22-2015 1:07 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by ringo, posted 11-24-2015 10:41 AM Jon has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 127 (773064)
11-24-2015 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Modulous
11-24-2015 8:04 AM


Why is that surprising?
Certainly you don't think it is the West's job to save all these folks from their own ideological nightmare?
At some point you're no longer helping but merely enabling.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Modulous, posted 11-24-2015 8:04 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Stile, posted 11-24-2015 11:29 AM Jon has not replied
 Message 92 by Modulous, posted 11-24-2015 1:16 PM Jon has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 127 (773115)
11-24-2015 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
11-24-2015 11:01 AM


So, they agree with the death penalty just like many of their counterparts in the west do. As John Oliver said (paraphrased), "whether you are stoning people to death, boiling them alive, or having them put to sleep by a cute puppy dressed as Winnie the Pooh, you are still getting the same result." I'm anti-death penalty, yet I can understand those people who advocate for this to remain as a penalty. I do not agree with them, but I understand where they are coming from.
Oh stop.
The death penalty is barbaric enough as it is without having it carried out on people simply for their sleeping around or being gay.
How much radicalism have we "imported" into our country through accepting refugees...I wonder if someone happened to run the actual numbers.
Did you read the other threads?
And the topic here isn't just about 'refugees'.
If you think that radicalized individuals are going to wait the, on average, three years to arrive in this country with refugee status when other options (student visa, tourist visas, or asylum) are available that have a small amount of vetting compared to attempting for refugee status, then I think you have swallowed the fear politicians are selling far too readily.
The topic here isn't just about 'refugees'.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 11-24-2015 11:01 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Omnivorous, posted 11-24-2015 8:51 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 127 (773122)
11-24-2015 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Omnivorous
11-24-2015 8:51 PM


Jon writes:
The topic here isn't just about 'refugees'.
Threads go many places, of course, but the primary focus of the OP was Muslim immigration:
I know; which is why I said this thread isn't just about 'refugees'.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Omnivorous, posted 11-24-2015 8:51 PM Omnivorous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-24-2015 10:28 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 106 of 127 (773135)
11-25-2015 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by New Cat's Eye
11-24-2015 10:28 PM


This thread also isn't just about terrorism.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-24-2015 10:28 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-25-2015 10:38 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 127 (773153)
11-25-2015 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by New Cat's Eye
11-25-2015 10:38 AM


I am not going to answer a loaded question that is artificially narrow in its scope.
I will address the broader issue, though, by telling you that my concern is with permitting folk into the West through any avenue of entry who are likely to spread intolerance, which would include acts of terrorism but is by no means limited to acts of terrorism.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-25-2015 10:38 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
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