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Author Topic:   Should Canada and the U.S. tolerate an intolerant Islam?
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3865
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 16 of 127 (772756)
11-18-2015 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Greatest I am
11-18-2015 10:36 AM


Re: Liberty Island Mini-Mall
The issue is not so much terrorism. It is preventing those who are bringing an incompatible ideology, Sharia, into the country and who will try to undermine ours.

Give a listen to the last link I gave.

Why would I want to listen to another religious nut case spouting incompatible anti-American ideology, Christian bigotry, without regard for what it means to have an all-inclusive First Amendment in this country and who is still trying to undermine ours.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Greatest I am, posted 11-18-2015 10:36 AM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Greatest I am, posted 11-18-2015 3:09 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 127 (772759)
11-18-2015 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by xongsmith
11-18-2015 1:49 AM


Re: Liberty Island Mini-Mall
Certainly what's written isn't "Give me your wicked, your bigoted, your religious fundamentalists yearning to subjugate the World to theocratic rule based on the violent teachings of a seventh-century warlord, pedophile, etc."

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by xongsmith, posted 11-18-2015 1:49 AM xongsmith has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3440
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 18 of 127 (772772)
11-18-2015 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Greatest I am
11-18-2015 10:45 AM


Re: Do not tolerate an intolerant Islam. But do tolerate Islam.
Greatest I am writes:

You would have us do the difficult task while people die when there is no need for them to die at all.

I am unaware of a plan that would prevent innocent people from dying.
If you actually do know of one, I am very interested in hearing about it.
Can you explain one to me?

Wait, I might understand what you meant if you answer the following question honestly: Do you consider *any* Muslims to be innocent people in this catastrophe?

Islam has to reform and the only way we can help it reform is to keep the "good" Muslims in the "bad" Muslims so as they can reform the "bad" Muslims.

Or we could help it reform by giving example after example after example of what a good person should do.
And when we are able to find the specific people responsible... stop them using force.

But your plan is to make other people do the dirty work so that you don't have to worry about the "hard task."
Other people who do not have all the advantages we do.
Other people who are not in as good a position to help the problem as we are.
And, of course, even if your plan was implemented it wouldn't stop the deaths of innocent Westerners anyway. It's a pipedream.

The terrorists cannot be contained for the same reason they cannot be kept out of the country.
They don't have a country, they don't have an area. They're already inside every major nation. They don't grow by birth. They grow by indoctrination over communication (internet) which has nothing to do with immigration policies.
Stopping immigration will affect the problem in exactly the same way as continuing immigration as it is currently done... no significant affect whatsoever.

I don't want to be a part of the world you're trying to shape with this "solution" just as I don't want to be a part of the world that the terrorists are trying to shape.

You're still being a part of the problem.
Your idea is helping to create a bad world.

You want to stop bad-world-number-1, but you only want to replace it with bad-world-number-2. We've seen this cycle repeat itself throughout history. You just want one more turn of the bad-world circle.

Why not fight against the bad?
Why not aim for a good world?
Why not do things that are not similar to how the terrorists do things?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Greatest I am, posted 11-18-2015 10:45 AM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Greatest I am, posted 11-18-2015 4:21 PM Stile has responded

    
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 491 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 19 of 127 (772773)
11-18-2015 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by ringo
11-18-2015 11:43 AM


ringo

They are for sure but when someone is also a follower of Sharia, a political system that is incompatible with democracy, you end with the type of garbage that is going on across the Atlantic.

While I know that there are good and evil Muslims. I think a moratorium on immigration from all the Muslim Middle Eastern countries should be enforced by all of the West until we get some of the garbage already taking place in the West sorted out including all the no-go zones popping up in Europe.

Since we know that mass immigration only causes ghettoes and destabilization of the host country, the West has to plan and control immigrants a lot better when they enter a host country than what has been going on.

The rights and freedoms of new immigrants have to be curtailed so as to make assimilation easier or as we can see, integration and assimilation does not happen.

The West, by being as benevolent as we are, are shooting ourselves in the foot and it is hard to have the country walk straight on one foot.

We should let immigrants and refugees know up front that if they move into our countries, they have to play by our rules, and leave the rules they are running from the hell out of our countries.

Western citizens are being quite militant against foreigners at present because of what has been allowed and we have to back up a couple of steps, even if it means the denial of rights, if we are to both appease the home populations as well as improve the condition of those that are new to the country.

We cannot let the new and less civilized drag us down to their level in an uncontrolled way. We need to get tough for a time so that we can get better over the long haul.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by ringo, posted 11-18-2015 11:43 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Modulous, posted 11-18-2015 8:09 PM Greatest I am has responded
 Message 25 by ringo, posted 11-19-2015 11:03 AM Greatest I am has not yet responded

    
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 491 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 20 of 127 (772774)
11-18-2015 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by ringo
11-18-2015 11:47 AM


Re: Do not tolerate an intolerant Islam. But do tolerate Islam.
ringo

I would agree that it is unfortunate for the good ones to have to suffer for the evil ones.

Our population is too small to allow Sharia lovers to enter our country and assault our ideology.

I need not repeat what I put in the post just above.

You might wonder though, if assimilation is the goal, what are they doing with their own schools.

Regards
DL

Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by ringo, posted 11-18-2015 11:47 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by ringo, posted 11-19-2015 11:08 AM Greatest I am has not yet responded

    
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 491 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 21 of 127 (772776)
11-18-2015 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by AZPaul3
11-18-2015 1:35 PM


Re: Liberty Island Mini-Mall
AZPaul3

Thanks for your comment. It did not make sense till I checked the link. My error. I seem to have pickup the wrong lin. I edited my original and added this one.

He is pro Christianity and softened my anti-Christian and religious stance to some extent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVskhzJR6NU

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by AZPaul3, posted 11-18-2015 1:35 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

    
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 491 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 22 of 127 (772787)
11-18-2015 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Stile
11-18-2015 2:48 PM


Re: Do not tolerate an intolerant Islam. But do tolerate Islam.
Stile

We collectively do all of the above.

"Do you consider *any* Muslims to be innocent people in this catastrophe?"

Absolutely. Probably a good 1/3.

If Islam is to reform, Muslims will have to do it. Giving them the opportunity to run from their problems is not going to help the larger majority of Muslims.

Allowing them to bring their ideological garbage into our countries when they are followers and pushers of Sharia is not going to do them any good and it will certainly not help the West as is plainly apparent across the Atlantic.

Showing tolerance to the intolerant is showing weakness to one who always has taken advantage of weakness. Doing so is insane.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Stile, posted 11-18-2015 2:48 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Stile, posted 11-19-2015 9:50 AM Greatest I am has responded

    
Modulous
Member (Idle past 216 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 23 of 127 (772798)
11-18-2015 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Greatest I am
11-18-2015 2:58 PM


They are for sure but when someone is also a follower of Sharia, a political system that is incompatible with democracy, you end with the type of garbage that is going on across the Atlantic.

Sharia is not a political system. It is a religious moral system - and what counts as Sharia varies from Muslim to Muslim. It is not incompatible with democracy any more than Christian religious moral systems. Christians can sort out their problems amongst themselves as long as it falls within the law of the land, and some Christians do submit themselves to their version of Sharia law in some cases, and their decisions can be binding - again within the law of the land. The law of the land is determined by electing legislators who draft and vote on new laws. Totally compatible with democracy.

You've confused 'sharia lovers' with Islamists. Islamists want Islam to infuse all levels of human interaction - and this is as undemocratic as when the West was ruled by Christianists.

I think a moratorium on immigration from all the Muslim Middle Eastern countries should be enforced by all of the West until we get some of the garbage already taking place in the West sorted out

What garbage? A handful of idiots blowing stuff up and shooting at people? They'll be doing that elsewhere, why not do it here? At least we have sacrificed our freedoms for government surveillance which is totally stopping lots of potential attacks and that this therefore gives us a better chance at stopping them than if they stay in the Middle East.

Its the moral thing to do, invite them in so we can catch them - or have them kill themselves if they must. It's not really going to affect us to any particular degree. There were probably a 1,000 babies born in France the day of the Paris attack for instance. ISIS simply isn't doing anything to actually harm us right now - they are may be more expensive to pursue on their home turf than they are to just take on the chin, .

Perhaps, at some point, we'll have some real garbage to deal with - and of course people dying is bad and I'd prefer that people I know don't suffer death etc., but people are going to die, its a given. It's just a question of how many and to what effect?

Since we know that mass immigration only causes ghettoes and destabilization of the host country, the West has to plan and control immigrants a lot better when they enter a host country than what has been going on.

Turkey has taken millions upon millions of refugees. The entirety of Europe is facing a low six figure amount distributed across the western part of its continent per year. Less than the number of extra mouths they'd feed from people being born. Less than the mouths that no longer need to be fed throughout Europe.

If we are worried about destabilising host countries, we should be taking more asylum seekers, not less. With ISIS around we don't want to destabilize Iraq, Jordan, and Turkey do we?

The rights and freedoms of new immigrants have to be curtailed so as to make assimilation easier or as we can see, integration and assimilation does not happen.

I don't know how excluding them from enjoying the same rights as their hosts can help integrate them. How does denying rights help? Besides which - the intent of asylum is not necessarily to grant permanent residence. That can happen, of course, but if a person intends to return to their homeland - there is no need to fully integrate into the host society.

The West, by being as benevolent as we are, are shooting ourselves in the foot and it is hard to have the country walk straight on one foot.

We spent 30billion in the UK on blowing up Afghanistan and Iraq. Much more was spent by the US. If we were to take in 30,000 refugees and give them all 50,000 to setup in the UK, it would only cost us 1.5billion. Seems like a bargain in comparison. Are we capable of spending 10s of billions to kill and maim, but we balk at spending a few billion to treat the least of them with dignity and love?

I'd say spending all of our money destabilising the region in the first place was probably shooting ourselves in the foot. Accepting refugees when warlords appear amidst the anarchy, is just taking responsibility.

We should let immigrants and refugees know up front that if they move into our countries, they have to play by our rules, and leave the rules they are running from the hell out of our countries.

They are running from them because they detest them and don't want to live under them as they fear they run afoul of them because they disagree with them.

Western citizens are being quite militant against foreigners at present because of what has been allowed and we have to back up a couple of steps, even if it means the denial of rights, if we are to both appease the home populations as well as improve the condition of those that are new to the country.

Screw it. People were quite militant against going to war in Iraq but we did it anyway right? Unless you are suggesting that we give in to possible threats of violent retribution from some host citizens? Because terrorism works?

I say we focus on educating people how trivial a problem accepting them is compared to the problems that accepting them resolves and to shame people for being so selfish as to worry about the fact that our taxes might go up a fraction to cover the costs or we might have to tolerate an increase in crime rate. Oh boo hoo, poor affluent nations might see an increase in burglary, shoplifting and assault. To avoid this travesty we absolutely must let these people drown - otherwise some of us might get our petticoats ruffled! Besides, can we really trust the Jews? I mean, the Muslims?

We cannot let the new and less civilized drag us down to their level in an uncontrolled way.

Even if every single one of the immigrants turns out to be a militant jihadi, and if they are all coordinating with one another for one massive attack. We'd likely still win, and they'd mostly be dead or captured. So why are we worried?

I mean most morons can only rack up pretty pathetic kill to death/capture ratios. The Boston morons scored 5:2. September 11th morons scored about 160:1. If we had 100,000 morons with as good a plan as September 11th Europe would lose maybe 10-20 million people?

At that point, of course, expect total war. But even so, I think the wound to the Islamists would be greater from the exertion than the wound they inflicted upon us. Such is our size. Our numbers from births alone will still jump by greater than their recruitment efforts.

We cannot let the new and less civilized drag us down to their level in an uncontrolled way.

Exactly. We must be civilized. Which means offering a helping hand to the needy. We shouldn't devolve into xenophobia and closing our borders - that would be what North Korea would do. ISIS are doing worse, and essentially killing people and chasing them out. We should not do likewise.

There is a story - I have no idea of its origins, but am pretty confident it is not a true story - about Vlad III Tepes - the Impaler aka Dracula (Vlad II was Dracul - the dragon, Vlad II was 'son of Dracul' - this is related to chivalry (The Order of the Dragon) which is kind of involved in the tale). One day a criminal, escaping from a pursuing watchman, found himself in the residence of Vlad Tepes. Vlad merely gave the man a polite nod in greeting. The man fled. A few moments later, the watchman followed the criminal and found himself also standing in front of The Impaler. Vlad gave no nod of greeting, nor indication as to the exit route of the pursued man. Instead, Vlad stabbed his sword into the watchman's belly. To his questioning eyes, Dracula answered, "The man you pursued was uncivilised and, like a child, knew no better. You however, are a protector of moral decency and law and you knew that you should not have entered my house without invitation - but did so anyway."

We need to get tough for a time so that we can get better over the long haul.

Erm...Bush, 2001?
No, Thatcher 1982!
Hrm
Hitler 1936?

Here's the thing. We were tough over the last few years. People were drowning. Their bodies were washing up on our beaches. It was kind of a bummer.


To conclude to the topic: Yes, the US and Canada should tolerate intolerant Muslims. Suck it up. There were people warning about refugee crises, instability caused by power vacuums since Iraq was put on the table....so suck it up. If someone breaks the law, punish them accordingly. It should be taken into account that they didn't strictly volunteer to leave their home so their options were find a nation with slots available and try their luck, or live in a Tent City and play dodge the plagues, thieves, rapists and murderers.

If they behave a way that would be acceptable at home but are not here, throwing the book at them would not seem appropriate. If they were applying for permanent residence, then maybe an argument could be made. Otherwise they are needy people taking shelter in your country. Sometime needy people try to fulfil those needs the way they know how - and maybe that's illegal here or there or wherever.

It's something that needs to be tackled responsibly and fairly with mercy. Obviously egregious crimes should not be overlooked. The notion of curtailing rights however, is an overreaction. Their crimes will not topple the social order.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Greatest I am, posted 11-18-2015 2:58 PM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Greatest I am, posted 11-19-2015 12:57 PM Modulous has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3440
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 24 of 127 (772822)
11-19-2015 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Greatest I am
11-18-2015 4:21 PM


Re: Do not tolerate an intolerant Islam. But do tolerate Islam.
Greatest I am writes:

If Islam is to reform, Muslims will have to do it.

This is true.
But making them do it alone is a bad thing, and will only serve to hurt ourselves.
We need to help.

Allowing them to bring their ideological garbage into our countries when they are followers and pushers of Sharia is not going to do them any good and it will certainly not help the West as is plainly apparent across the Atlantic.

And no one has ever done this, or advocated doing this.
When ever the "garbage" goes against our existing laws, they are punished just like anyone else.

Showing tolerance to the intolerant is showing weakness to one who always has taken advantage of weakness. Doing so is insane.

Again, your statement is absolutely correct.
But, again, you seem to miss the point that no one is advocating such a thing.

I don't want to show tolerance to those that do not deserve it.
However, I am also against your proposal of retaliation by hurting innocent people. Even by ignoring them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Greatest I am, posted 11-18-2015 4:21 PM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Greatest I am, posted 11-19-2015 1:06 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16362
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 25 of 127 (772835)
11-19-2015 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Greatest I am
11-18-2015 2:58 PM


Greatest I am writes:

We should let immigrants and refugees know up front that if they move into our countries, they have to play by our rules, and leave the rules they are running from the hell out of our countries.


We do that - and the vast majority of them willingly comply - so your fears of Sharia are unfounded.

Greatest I am writes:

Western citizens are being quite militant against foreigners at present....


No they are not. Only the bigots are and they always were.

Greatest I am writes:

We cannot let the new and less civilized drag us down to their level in an uncontrolled way.


We can't let YOU drag us down to YOUR level.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Greatest I am, posted 11-18-2015 2:58 PM Greatest I am has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16362
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 26 of 127 (772836)
11-19-2015 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Greatest I am
11-18-2015 3:02 PM


Re: Do not tolerate an intolerant Islam. But do tolerate Islam.
Greatest I am writes:

Our population is too small to allow Sharia lovers to enter our country and assault our ideology.


"We" don't have a monolithic ideology. The strength of our country is in our diversity and in cooperation between diverse individuals.

Greatest I am writes:

You might wonder though, if assimilation is the goal, what are they doing with their own schools.


Assimilation is not my goal.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Greatest I am, posted 11-18-2015 3:02 PM Greatest I am has not yet responded

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 491 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 27 of 127 (772850)
11-19-2015 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Modulous
11-18-2015 8:09 PM


Modulous

I would not be touching the rights of those who wish to import their vile ideology into our countries. They have no rights if they are not our citizens.

I would deny them the opportunity to enter and entering is not a right.

You seem rather generous and cavalier with the lives of Western citizens and our wealth. Do you want the rest in the West having the economic hardship that we know will happen in Europe as well as the social unrest they are experiencing?

And for what?

To have more homophobic and misogynous freedom haters in our free lands?

Bring yourself up to date.

https://www.rt.com/.../315811-refugees-influx-german-economy

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Modulous, posted 11-18-2015 8:09 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Modulous, posted 11-19-2015 1:46 PM Greatest I am has responded

    
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 491 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 28 of 127 (772852)
11-19-2015 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Stile
11-19-2015 9:50 AM


Re: Do not tolerate an intolerant Islam. But do tolerate Islam.
Stile

"But making them do it alone is a bad thing, and will only serve to hurt ourselves."

I am all for helping then and showing strongly that we will not tolerate their right wing immoral homophobic and misogynous Islam and Sharia is the best way.

You agree that showing weakness is wrong so showing the strength of our convictions and ideology has to be correct and that is what I propose.

If we are to impoverish ourselves by supporting those in need, they can at least leave their immoral practices the hell out of our better countries.

Protecting our ideology has to trump our generosity, The long run is more important than the short run.

We cannot love such immoral systems and people and if they cannot take our tough love then tough on them. They can stay home and fight for their rights the same way our forefathers did.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Stile, posted 11-19-2015 9:50 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 127 (772855)
11-19-2015 1:42 PM


Benefits of Islam
Is it worth it to let Muslims into Western lands?

The only way to answer that is to do a cost-benefit analysis of the situation. We've already heard of the potential costs, so maybe we can look at the benefits.

So, what are the benefits of Islam?

Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Edited by Jon, : No reason given.


Love your enemies!

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Greatest I am, posted 11-19-2015 2:27 PM Jon has not yet responded
 Message 69 by ringo, posted 11-21-2015 11:10 AM Jon has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 216 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 30 of 127 (772856)
11-19-2015 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Greatest I am
11-19-2015 12:57 PM


I would not be touching the rights of those who wish to import their vile ideology into our countries.

That's nice, oh arbiter of the vile.

But denying criminals their rights is no less evil.

They have no rights if they are not our citizens.

Obviously false. Otherwise tourists would have no rights as well as people on temporary visas. But they do.

I would deny them the opportunity to enter and entering is not a right.

Deny who? What's your criteria? Can it be administered fairly? Every citizen in the world has a right to apply for Asylum in the USA. In order to apply for Asylum you have to be on US soil.

You seem rather generous and cavalier with the lives of Western citizens and our wealth.

I see them as equal to the lives of Eastern citizens.

Do you want the rest in the West having the economic hardship that we know will happen in Europe as well as the social unrest they are experiencing?

The impact to us is still three or four magnitudes better than the impact to them if we decline Asylum.

And for what?

Humanity and decency.

To have more homophobic and misogynous freedom haters in our free lands?

Even if they were all homophobic and misogynous - the numbers are so ridiculously small that it won't much difference when we add it to the homophobia and misogyny of the host citizens already here.

Bring yourself up to date.

Please tell me what conclusions you reached after reading the words of a near single issue Anti-immigrant homophobic crpyto-fascist MEP got published in a Russian propaganda outlet.

Cos I thought you were against listening to the poison of homophobes?

Anyway Marcus Pretzel hates Germany. He thinks collapse is imminent, and yet poorer countries with smaller host populations have taken on more refugees.

Apparently Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey, Iran and Kenya are just more competent economically than Germany!

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Greatest I am, posted 11-19-2015 12:57 PM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Greatest I am, posted 11-19-2015 2:41 PM Modulous has responded

  
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