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Author Topic:   Should Canada and the U.S. tolerate an intolerant Islam?
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 31 of 127 (772859)
11-19-2015 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Jon
11-19-2015 1:42 PM


Re: Benefits of Islam
Jon
"So, what are the benefits of Islam?"
It depends on right or left wing but let me try.
Perhaps a strong bond of the males and their notions of marrying their dead relatives wives. One poster pretty well convinced me that this was done for duty and honor and not for any other reason. We agreed that sexual novelty was a small short lived plus as compared to having two women around instead of just the one.
In most cases I think this is true as I cannot see many men wanting more than one wife.
There may also be some benefits to the oppression of their young daughters as they seem to have much fewer abortions than Western Christian nations. This might be more cultural though as even some atheist nations have fewer abortions than say the U.S. which some say is a Christian nation.
One thing I have to definitely give them is that they reproduce enough to maintain their societies while the West has pretty well decided not to do so by not reproducing enough.
I do not think those plusses are worth all the minuses though.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Jon, posted 11-19-2015 1:42 PM Jon has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 32 of 127 (772861)
11-19-2015 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Modulous
11-19-2015 1:46 PM


Modulous
It is a lot cheaper in the countries you name as they mostly have tent cities and poverty conditions as compare to the relative opulent conditions the West provides.
"Humanity and decency."
I happily give and accept those who are humane and decent.
By and large, those are the minority of left wing Muslims but definitely not the right wing ones who form the majority of Islam.
A moratorium would allow us the time to weed out the wheat from the chaff and give us the tools to protect our better ideology.
Just that message to Islam might break that immoral camels back and help free the 1/2 billon Muslim women who are denied equality by their misogynous freedom hating men.
Look at the big picture and not our benefits of being nice to people that do not deserve it. I prefer to try to be good to the many and ignore the few just as you ignored the few of us who will die at their hands if we just let anyone in.
The Canadian and American reputations of benevolence and charity can take this small hit if we look at the bigger prise of having Islam clean up its dirty and immoral act.
We do not need the ego point. They do.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Modulous, posted 11-19-2015 1:46 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Modulous, posted 11-19-2015 3:09 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 33 of 127 (772862)
11-19-2015 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Greatest I am
11-19-2015 2:41 PM


"Humanity and decency."
I happily give and accept those who are humane and decent.
I was telling you my reasons for accepting people fleeing warzones.
By and large, those are the minority of left wing Muslims but definitely not the right wing ones who form the majority of Islam.
It is still human and decent to help out those who have different creeds, worldviews, religions or cultures than us. Even if we find some of those views abhorent.
A moratorium would allow us the time to weed out the wheat from the chaff and give us the tools to protect our better ideology.
Sorting out the wheat from the chaff is called 'the asylum process'. How will this moratorium work? Do we just watch their bodies wash up onto our shores while we do...what exactly?
Just that message to Islam might break that immoral camels back and help free the 1/2 billon Muslim women who are denied equality by their misogynous freedom hating men.
And as I told you before: We did that already. We refused entry. Remember?
There was a change of heart when this happened.
We decided that we didn't like kids dying all that much.
Look at the big picture and not our benefits of being nice to people that do not deserve it.
Fuck off.
I prefer to try to be good to the many and ignore the few just as you ignored the few of us who will die at their hands if we just let anyone in.
But that's what we're doing at the moment to those that seek asylum. Plenty will have their application refused, in fact in the UK this year (up to June) we had refused 59% of Asylum applications as a first decision. There is an appeals process, but this still tends to leave us denying more than 50% of applicants.
The Canadian and American reputations of benevolence and charity can take this small hit if we look at the bigger prise of having Islam clean up its dirty and immoral act.
You won't change Islam by letting the victims of Islamism who do not want to support or live under such extreme Islamism - drown.
We know this because we've done it. Has Islamic culture shifted to your liking when thousands were drowning or camping out in train stations and being passed around Europe?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Greatest I am, posted 11-19-2015 2:41 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Greatest I am, posted 11-19-2015 5:52 PM Modulous has replied
 Message 36 by Jon, posted 11-19-2015 9:32 PM Modulous has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 34 of 127 (772867)
11-19-2015 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Modulous
11-19-2015 3:09 PM


Modulous
You go ahead and look at the small picture. I will continue to try to get the buy for my buck and try to kill the root instead of picking leaves.
Count the dead and let me know if the few dead immigrants and refugees who could also be jihadist cells as compared to what Islam, the root of all this is creating.
I will cry for the many while you cry for the few.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWkQ9JMIbWg
While at it, have a look at Islam and what the majority follow.
It is not the best quality so I have the transcript as well.
Jihad Omar Tax and death.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp9TTEXOrME
Transcript.
Private Site
Omar
http://www.raymondibrahim.com/...e-of-the-conditions-of-omar
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Modulous, posted 11-19-2015 3:09 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Modulous, posted 11-19-2015 7:14 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 35 of 127 (772870)
11-19-2015 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Greatest I am
11-19-2015 5:52 PM


You go ahead and look at the small picture.
Making sweeping and vague comments is not looking at the big picture. It's ignoring it.
I will continue to try to get the buy for my buck and try to kill the root instead of picking leaves.
See? That's about as vague you can get. What am I supposed to do with this in a debate?
What are you specifically trying to get done and do you know it is more efficient?
I'm looking at the small picture apparently. I'm trying to consider a strategy to effect long term cultural change. One which empowers the peace-loving Muslims, that shows them alternate ways to live that might improve their own culture. One which brings our enemies to us where they'll be easier to monitor, detain and hopefully, deradicalize.
The Muslims that hate and fear ISIS? Who disagree with their insane worldview? I want to keep them alive and the opposite for ISIS. You just seem focussed on throwing women and children under the bus today to teach Islam to be nice to women and children tomorrow.
Count the dead and let me know if the few dead immigrants and refugees who could also be jihadist cells as compared to what Islam, the root of all this is creating.
There are many more dead refugees than westerners killed by terrorism in the last decade. Just a guestimate, but thousands have died travelling to Europe - and many more are dying in the Tent Cities.
Here's the thing, Islam isn't the root. The root is dogma, but it doesn't have to be Islam - that's just the predominant one in the region we have been destabilising. I'm pretty sure we can find a nice unstable Christian African country where Christian militias are killing Muslims. Oh hi Central African Republic - nice of you to volunteer as an example.
And even if we accept that it is - surely you can accept that you can't get rid of Islam, so why not focus on pruning until we get a bonsai religion?
I will cry for the many while you cry for the few.
You cry. I'm more focussed at the moment on how to minimize deaths over the next 20 years than crying. I was done weeping somewhere just after Coalition Provisional Authority Order 2 - which in hindsight may well have been a key factor in the formation of ISIS. Since then I've been trying to direct my votes towards people who are talking long term strategy not short term tactics, and persuade others to do likewise.
If only those poor women were able to escape from Syria and go somewhere safer. Oh wait - aren't you arguing against giving people the opportunity to try and avoid this fate? That they don't deserve it because they'll bring their accursed culture with them?
While at it, have a look at Islam and what the majority follow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp9TTEXOrME
I'm not sure you can hold up a Shia cleric as being a spokesman for the majority of Islam.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Greatest I am, posted 11-19-2015 5:52 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Greatest I am, posted 11-20-2015 9:33 AM Modulous has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 36 of 127 (772873)
11-19-2015 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Modulous
11-19-2015 3:09 PM


You won't change Islam by letting the victims of Islamism who do not want to support or live under such extreme Islamism - drown.
Are they? Or are they themselves perpetrators who just happen to be dissatisfied with who won/is winning the battle?
Remember our Islam and Multiculturalism threads?
How many British Muslims want Saudi-Arabia-style Sharia? How many deplore homosexuality?
Is it that they don't want to live under extreme Islam, or just that they don't want to live under someone else's extreme Islam but instead under their own?
Fuck off.
I really feel bad for the children. The ones who will grow up to be indoctrinated into a culture of down-right evil that subjugates women, hates freedom and progress, a completely crippled culture with no hope of finding itself at peace with the world of secular enlightenment.
At the same time, we have to look at reality and admit what these children will become so long as the culture of Islam liveswhat some may already be.
We don't need to go killing kids, but we also shouldn't feel responsible for what their culture does to them.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Modulous, posted 11-19-2015 3:09 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Modulous, posted 11-20-2015 9:02 AM Jon has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 37 of 127 (772896)
11-20-2015 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Jon
11-19-2015 9:32 PM


Are they?
Yes. They had the opportunity to live under the extreme Islamism of ISIS and they opted to risk the lives of themselves and their family to not live under the extreme Islamism of ISIS. This is how I know that, on the whole, they don't want to live under the extreme Islamism of ISIS.
Or are they themselves perpetrators who just happen to be dissatisfied with who won/is winning the battle?
Not sure what difference it makes, to be honest.
Remember our Islam and Multiculturalism threads?
Yes. You tried to find reasons to paint Muslims as intrinsically bad and you resisted any efforts to discuss the reasons why we're in the current climate and what we can do to have the best possible future.
How many British Muslims want Saudi-Arabia-style Sharia?
British citizens are free to want whatever they want.
How many deplore homosexuality?
As they are entitled to.
Is it that they don't want to live under extreme Islam, or just that they don't want to live under someone else's extreme Islam but instead under their own?
Does it matter?
I really feel bad for the children. The ones who will grow up to be indoctrinated into a culture of down-right evil that subjugates women, hates freedom and progress, a completely crippled culture with no hope of finding itself at peace with the world of secular enlightenment.
At what age does someone stop eliciting sympathetic feelings from you?
At the same time, we have to look at reality and admit what these children will become so long as the culture of Islam liveswhat some may already be.
We we don't know what they'll become.
Tell me - would you rather they were educated in Syria by ISIS or in Sweden by the State school system? Which outcome is more likely to fulfil your prophecy of these kids growing up into a life of extemism?
We don't need to go killing kids, but we also shouldn't feel responsible for what their culture does to them.
You can blame who you like. You can disclaim any responsibility if you want. You can argue that the refugee crisis is nothing to do with the fact that we made a load of trained men with guns unemployed during our invasion of their lands. That our efforts to train and arm people to fight AQ-Iraq simply helped AQ-Iraq's ideological enemies who coalesced into ISIS was in no way contributory to the current crisis.
That doesn't change the notion that we should be nice people who try and help civilians fleeing a warzone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Jon, posted 11-19-2015 9:32 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Greatest I am, posted 11-20-2015 9:39 AM Modulous has replied
 Message 66 by Jon, posted 11-21-2015 8:30 AM Modulous has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 38 of 127 (772899)
11-20-2015 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Modulous
11-19-2015 7:14 PM


Modulous
"What are you specifically trying to get done and do you know it is more efficient?"
Islam must be changed from within.
If Muslims who want to change Islam can run away from it then Islam will never reform.
Note how many Muslim countries have condemned ISIS. That condemnation, when backed by bodies that we have caused to stay in the M. E. to fight for those reforms, will bear fruit.
We in the West do not need reforming to a more barbaric Islamic way, which is what is happening in the E.U. and Scandinavian lands.
Islam needs a wake up call and forcing them to stay at home and fight for their rights is the long term solution.
If it takes violence, then we should train and arm Muslims and send them back. Only a Muslim victory with Western help can have Islam change and the West should make a reform of the Qur'an and Sharia and the way they are interpreted should be tied to any help we offer.
There are a number of Muslim lands that are quite democratic or under other political systems that are reasonable so the M.E. has no excuse for choosing the more right wing jihadist creating forms of Islam.
The West did not run from the fight for freedom and that is why we have it.
To facilitate the M.E. Muslims to run from their fight for freedom just gives the enemy a greater number that they need not fight, and we, in that sense, are exacerbating the problem by making the enemy stronger.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Modulous, posted 11-19-2015 7:14 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Modulous, posted 11-20-2015 2:59 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 39 of 127 (772901)
11-20-2015 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Modulous
11-20-2015 9:02 AM


Modulous
"As they are entitled to."
In our free lands, no one is entitled to discriminate against those that the law of the land does not discriminate against.
Right?
That is why Sharia should be rejected as it discriminates against women and gays without a just cause.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Modulous, posted 11-20-2015 9:02 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Bliyaal, posted 11-20-2015 10:01 AM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 52 by Modulous, posted 11-20-2015 3:11 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2368 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


Message 40 of 127 (772902)
11-20-2015 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Greatest I am
11-20-2015 9:39 AM


In our free lands, no one is entitled to discriminate against those that the law of the land does not discriminate against.
So why are you doing it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Greatest I am, posted 11-20-2015 9:39 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Greatest I am, posted 11-20-2015 1:06 PM Bliyaal has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 41 of 127 (772908)
11-20-2015 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Bliyaal
11-20-2015 10:01 AM


Bliyaal
I am not. They are not in my land as yet and will not be if I have my way.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Bliyaal, posted 11-20-2015 10:01 AM Bliyaal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Bliyaal, posted 11-20-2015 1:24 PM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 43 by DrJones*, posted 11-20-2015 1:34 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2368 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


(1)
Message 42 of 127 (772909)
11-20-2015 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Greatest I am
11-20-2015 1:06 PM


Oh... yeah... totally different... NOT.
I'm much more scared by you than any syrian refugee.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Greatest I am, posted 11-20-2015 1:06 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Greatest I am, posted 11-20-2015 1:39 PM Bliyaal has replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 43 of 127 (772910)
11-20-2015 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Greatest I am
11-20-2015 1:06 PM


I am not. They are not in my land as yet and will not be if I have my way.
By trying to prevent them from entering the country you are discriminating against them

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Greatest I am, posted 11-20-2015 1:06 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Greatest I am, posted 11-20-2015 1:37 PM DrJones* has replied
 Message 46 by Jon, posted 11-20-2015 1:40 PM DrJones* has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 44 of 127 (772911)
11-20-2015 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by DrJones*
11-20-2015 1:34 PM


DrJones*
Indeed. And proud to stand and give all the reasons why.
Sharia discriminates against democracy. Why should we not reciprocate?
Is reciprocity not fair play where you come from?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by DrJones*, posted 11-20-2015 1:34 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by DrJones*, posted 11-20-2015 1:45 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 45 of 127 (772912)
11-20-2015 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Bliyaal
11-20-2015 1:24 PM


Bliyaal
Not surprising as I am honest while they could be liars and terrorists.
Truth sometimes hurt more than lies.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Bliyaal, posted 11-20-2015 1:24 PM Bliyaal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Bliyaal, posted 11-20-2015 2:10 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
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