Free will vs Omniscience

Of course you do, but you're wrong.

Phat, you'll recall that back in Message 339, I didn't make an atheistic argument against Christianity or the Christian experience.Rather, I proposed that people don't stop being Christians when they sin, or even when they deeply question their faith; the notion that born again Christians are perfected in their faith and cannot fall away, that sinning again after salvation, or even losing one's faith entirely, doesn't mean they are no longer Christians.My comments were in the context of the "no true Christian" fallacy, often invoked by Christians defending the conduct of other Christians in debates about the impact of Christianity on the world, for good or ill. Both the Bible and Luther, among others, disagree with you. If you have any trouble finding support for Luther saying one could fall from grace, let me know. I'll just treat with the Bible here.Peter, for example, denied Christ three times, and fled Caiaphas' courtyard while the guards beat and mocked Christ--yet it was Peter who entered the empty tomb and who preached on the Day of the Pentecost.Did he stop being a Christian anywhere in there?I don't want you to give up your faith. I just want you to stop using fallacious--and counter-biblical--defenses of it. They hurt my brain.

Oh? Explain to me the time you once had faith---and what it was that you had it in?

I had faith until I was about 14. Swallowed the thing whole, believed every word. Gradually over a year or so it became blindingly obvious that it was just another made up thing of grow-ups, like Father Christmas.If you think about it for just a minute, Europe was a Christian country, the vast majority of atheists will have been born into Christian families and brought up as Christian. They had a faith and lost it.These days it's a little different, there are a large number of atheists bringing up children without being hamstrung by superstition so they didn't have a faith to lose.And, btw, 'losing' is a believers concept - there's nothing to be lost.

Which means--to me at least--that if you never had faith in anything or anyone other than an idea which you claim is and was made up by others..(nevermind) OK...got it. The idea that there is nothing to be lost is your opinion and belief. Evidence is not simply external and easily replicable. In some cases evidence is internal.For some of us, there is a person in whom we believe and in whom we claim to know.It is to us more than simply an idea---nor a made up one.

It's called indoctrination. If it is done early enough and often enough it becomes so ingrained in the mind that reality can no longer have any effect.

That's not evidence for anything except personal delusion. It's purely subjective. Your beliefs can be 'seen' using magnetic resonace imaging of your brain - that's evidence of your belief. It's absolutely no evidence that what you believe is true. I don't doubt it. I thought exactly the same about Father Christmas as I did about Jesus - both were very real. I spoke to Jesus and I left a wish list and a carrot out for Father Christmas. Unlike Jesus though there was actual evidence of Father Christmas. I asked him for a train set and he gave me one. Rudolf eat the carrot and FC left sooty footprints. When I asked Jesus to cure the deformed legs of my friend with polio, nothing happenened.Then I grew up.

No it isn't. You don't get to change the meaning of words.

Disciple of Sam Harris, are you? The Time Magazine article *is* interesting, however. I'll give you that. To wit: I still say its too early to draw any conclusions regarding what is and is not absolute truth....but I'll take into consideration this new knowledge that we humans on our dust speck are amassing---regarding what we know versus what we make up.I maintain that "growing up" does not eliminate the need for spirituality--nor does it imply that belief in Jesus Christ--alive eternally and in communion eternally with humanity---is a bad and destructive mindset.In Line with this topic, you may urge readers to utilize free will and gain knowledge while discarding superstition. In your mind, all religious beliefs are superstitious.As far as Omniscience goes, you may argue that there is nothing nor anyone to whom we could attribute such a trait.I, on the other hand, would embrace waking up each day and surrendering my problems to something and someone in whom I believe. This does not stop me from using critical thinking, discrimination of ideas, or free will regarding less important matters such as which pair of socks to wear.Lets say I read either my Bible or a similar themed text every day. Today, as an example, I pick up a devotional called The Word For You Today and read the following entry:

quote:

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Always Keep a Good Attitude
Friday, 27 November 2015---

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"Meditate on these things...and the God of peace will be with you." Philippians 4:8-9 NKJV

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When you're going through bad times, your goal should be to keep a good attitude. And with God's help you can. Dr. Viktor Frankl, a Nazi Holocaust camp survivor, said, "If a prisoner felt that he could no longer endure the realities of camp life, he found a way out in his mental life-an invaluable opportunity to dwell in the spiritual domain, the one that the [SS] was unable to destroy. Spiritual life strengthened the prisoner, helped him to adapt, and thereby improved his chances of survival." Here is some practical advice on keeping a good attitude in bad times: (1) Always believe the best about others, but don't get bent out of shape when they disappoint you. Nobody is perfect, including you. Just be grateful for the people that bring joy, and endeavour to be counted among them. (2) When you are tempted to retaliate, judge, or become impatient, say to yourself, "This is an opportunity for me to model a great attitude for the glory of God." You say, "But this person is driving me crazy." Then refuse to be a "passenger" and go along with them. Take back the wheel, get into the driver's seat of your life, and determine which direction you'll go and what attitude you'll have. The Bible says "Whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy-meditate on these things...and the God of peace will be with you."

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Gen 17-19, John 12:37-50, Ps 118:19-29, Prov 31:14-17

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Would you argue that this start of my day is turning my worldview to mush?

Well who gets to define them then? I always liked the quote from Louis Carroll...

quote:

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'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.'

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I suppose science will scan my brain and find it empty..

Communication requires a sender, a receiver and a channel. The sender and receiver have to use the same meanings of words for communication to occur. If I say, "I ate corn flakes for breakfast," and you interpret that as, "I ate live kittens for breakfast," then we have failed to communicate.You can NOT use the word "evidence" for any damn thing you please. If it isn't evidence, don't call it evidence. It's that simple.What is it with you believers, anyway? Is your faith so weak that you have to prop it up by pretending you have evidence?

I base the definition on personal experience. "Seeing Is Believing" is to me, evidence. And for the record---NO---I do not need evidence.

What is this 'need' for spirituality? I don't have one and I don't even know what it means. It's not necessarily bad - so long as by 'bad' you mean harmful. I don't think it's more harmful than believing in Father Christmas. It's just childish - which can be a problem if it continues into adulthood. Though most everyday believers seem to function ok. If it gets literal and becomes dogmatic it does start getting dangerous. There ain't no such thing as free will. We've been over this. It just another daft religious construct. If you want to use it in my hearing, replace it with 'rational choice' - though this too is bounded. Of course. I assume you think the same of, I dunno, ancestor worship.As for Lewis Carol, his writings are regarded as one of the best examples of nonsense literature.

You can't do that. You do not get to have your own personal language - not if you want to communicate. Then stop using the word.

I suppose this chalks up a point for the "Christianity is all about what we DO" crowd. and i suppose that what we *DO* is all of the evidence possible as to what Spirit is within us.It sounds like a rewrite of the Good Samaritan....hungry, beaten and stranded by the side of the road....a weary traveler watched two Christians and a Muslim pass them by and then was rescued by a friendly atheist!Which to me would be evidence that the atheist would get saved eventually.