Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Life - an Unequivicol Definition
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 220 of 374 (773616)
12-04-2015 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by AlphaOmegakid
12-04-2015 11:50 AM


Re: Black White or Grey?
I asked you in post 185 to identify how my definition in any way is arbitrary. Can you please do that?
I think Percy answered your question in the post to which you are responding. In short your answer defines things as non-living for which biologists themselves have some doubt the correct classification and because it rules out living organisms that are at least hypothetically possible. Unless you know more biology that a biologist, it seems that the practical thing would be to ignore your definition.
Why don't you instead tell us why (other than for the purpose of being definite) you pick your definition draws the line where it does? Because the rationale for your answer, and your defense when questioned should cover why your definition is not arbitrary.
But it appears to me, and probably to the rest of us, at least Percy and Genomicus have both explained why your definition is unsuitable and arbitrary.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 12-04-2015 11:50 AM AlphaOmegakid has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-04-2015 12:50 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 231 of 374 (773688)
12-07-2015 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Percy
12-04-2015 5:18 PM


Re: Black White or Grey?
Percy writes:
That's a very strange and nonsensical interpretation.
Interesting...

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Percy, posted 12-04-2015 5:18 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 238 of 374 (773722)
12-08-2015 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by AlphaOmegakid
11-23-2015 5:10 PM


So you cannot understand that the cells within the mule are evolving
So for you it is enough to say that the cells are evolving in order to say that something is alive?
Or more to the point, do you understand such an evolution to be what RAZD and I were discussing? If so, then you missed the entire point of the discussion.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 11-23-2015 5:10 PM AlphaOmegakid has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 12-08-2015 11:26 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 243 of 374 (773751)
12-08-2015 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by AlphaOmegakid
12-08-2015 11:26 AM


I find it amazing that you can read this and not understand that I am agreeing with you. RAZD's argument that the mule is evolving is fallacious goobledeegunk! Can you not see that in my words/emoticons?
It is very likely that I missed your point. I have been operating on very little sleep the last few weeks because I am supplementing my income by helping students complete those last minute programming projects that were assigned weeks ago but are finally due today.
I completely missed any sarcasm that was in your message. My bad.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 12-08-2015 11:26 AM AlphaOmegakid has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 252 of 374 (773782)
12-09-2015 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by AlphaOmegakid
12-08-2015 1:27 PM


Re: Black White or Grey?
The grading system in our schools/ colleges is by no means arbitrary.
Is Polonium a metal or a non metallic element. Is there any reason to decide that question based on what you know? Is there really any justification for drawing the line on one side or the other of astatine. Because if not, then any line we draw just for the sake of being firm can be considered arbitrary.
Forcing a line into a grey area where the sole reason for doing so is to classify everything on one side or the other means your definition is arbitrary. There is no logical reason for not moving the line left or right.
Edited by NoNukes, : Example changed from Astatine to Polonium

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 12-08-2015 1:27 PM AlphaOmegakid has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 271 of 374 (773951)
12-11-2015 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by AlphaOmegakid
12-11-2015 11:03 AM


Re: Black White or Grey?
I have been trying to show you the contradiction over and over again, but you just can't comprehend it. The problem is, because you chose the words, "living " for one end and "non-living" for the other then there is no logical word for what is in the grey area because you chose two mutually exclusive words on each end.
Applying words to the endpoints does not exclude the possibility that those same words to the middle portions of the spectrum. This argument is laughable. Small wonder Percy cannot 'comprehend it'.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 12-11-2015 11:03 AM AlphaOmegakid has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 295 of 374 (774270)
12-15-2015 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by AlphaOmegakid
11-19-2015 12:58 PM


I think you need to consider the context of the terms. Microsporida are cells and can survive (live) for some time outside of a host. They do produce a small amount of ATP during Substrate-level phosphorylation.
This does not seem to be correct. From what I have read Micosporida lack mitochondria and have only mitosomes. Mitosomes are incapable of producing ATP even by substrate-level phosphorylation. In fact the article goes on to say about a particular parasite that it does not have its own method of ATP product.
So is this parasite alive by your definition?
Hydrogenosomes and Mitosomes: Mitochondria of Anaerobic Eukaryotes - Google Books
All life comes from pr-existing life The law of Biogenesis
There is no "Law of Biogenesis." What is true is that maggots and bacteria do not form directly out of non-living materials. That's all that Paschal and others could show from their experiment.
Beside that, I thought the Bible said that humans and animals were created directly from non-living materials. Do not both science and the Bible agree that the origin of life was from non living materials?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 11-19-2015 12:58 PM AlphaOmegakid has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 296 of 374 (774272)
12-15-2015 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by AlphaOmegakid
12-15-2015 11:17 AM


Re: The horse is just about dead!
The problem here is that you think the definition of life lies in the middle. It doesn't. On any continuum the edges are distinct ("obvious"). The synonym for distinct is "clear", "well defined", and "obvious". Which is exactly how you defined life in regards to a dog.
Again this argument is specious. Identifying that there are obvious examples of life does not define life as not applying to some non-obvious examples. Seriously, is there doubt about whether a new born puppy is alive? Does that mean mean that we might not have doubt about some other putative organism? Of course not.
What you are trying to argue here is that not only is there a firm definition about what constitutes a living organism (namely yours), but also that alternative views on the subject are not even possible. Clearly that's BS. We already have definitions that have some ambiguity.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 12-15-2015 11:17 AM AlphaOmegakid has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024