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Author | Topic: Are religions manmade and natural or supernaturally based? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
1. The universe has not existed eternally in the past. If it did it would have been dead a long time ago as there would be no useable energy left as energy can not be created or destroyed. Your argument does not tell us how energy could ever be lost regardless of how long the universe existed. If energy cannot be destroyed, it cannot be used up simply by the passage of time. So you need to make an argument based on the second law of thermodynamics rather than on the first law. I see a half-baked attempt to do exactly that, but the problem with such an argument is that nobody knows whether or not such an argument is correct.
4. Since energy is required to produce the mass that makes up everything in the universe that energy had to be supplied by some means. Sure, now what is the total amount of energy in the universe including all of the mass, kinetic and gravitational potential energy? What if I told you that the total amount of energy is something close to zero? There are two number 4 answers, but the second number is moot in view of the answer above.
5. Non existence can not produce anything. Why don't you prove that statement to be true? Perhaps it is not.
7. Since the universe ... could not have existed eternally in the past, the universe had a beginning to exist. I don't believe the universe existed eternally in the past, but you have not managed to show any such thing. In my opinion, it is impossible to demonstrate scientifically the existence or non-existence of God. The existence of God is simply outside of the realm of scientific inquiry. Accordingly, any attempts to use scientific reasoning to demonstrate God or the supernatural must fail. Now, while the above is simply my own understanding, it is the case that your argument is full of holes and seems to confirm my understanding. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Since energy is required to produce the mass that makes up everything in the universe that energy had to be supplied by some means. Your argument for the supernatural basis of religion relies on this. I argued earlier that this is not necessarily true. The universe may have a finite past but it has existed for all time and there was therefore no prior time to the universe from which anything can supply it. The energy simply exists, it didn't pop into existence, it just exists.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Mod,
Mod writes: The energy simply exists, it didn't pop into existence, it just exists. That statement would require that energy existed eternally in the past. If the energy existed eternally in the past, why did it wait so long to create the universe? Better yet what caused it to start the process of creating the universe. But wouldn't that mean that the energy exists outside of the universe? You have told me several times in the past that there is nothing outside the universe, as it is self contained. I have been told on this web site in no uncertain terms that there is nothing outside of the universe. If that is true your energy could not just exist. The energy just existing would require some place to exist, where did it exist? The universe did not exist. I believe that energy did exist. That is the reason I believe in a Supernatural power that supplied the energy required to create the universe we live in. The alternative is unthinkable. Existence beginning to exist from non existence. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Admin,
I am sorry that my mind does not run in the same ruts that yours and others here does. The statements are: Mass has a pull on mass. Mass warps space-time. That warped space-time then causes gravity to work. The trampoline and ball example is then used to support that concept. I just spent the better part of an hour staring at a little ball running around a vortex caused by the earth warping space-time here. What Is Gravity? | NASA Space Place — NASA Science for Kids My mind may be what is warped but I see a problem with the example. The mass of the earth would have to exert the same effect on all of space-time that surrounds the earth. Which would nullify any effect on the little ball as there would be no indention towards the earth in which the ball could fall towards the earth. That is the reason I have used the example several times that the mass in space-time would be like a fish in water. The mass would only displace space-time where it exists. Therefore there would be no curvature of space-time as presented. That brings us back to mass exerting pull on mass. Which means some kind of unknown energy (for a better word) operating in mysterious ways. Now if I am misunderstanding the effect of mass on space-time maybe someone would explain to me how the trampoline or sheet effect could be true. As always I believe it is all controlled by laws that the Supernatural power put into effect upon creation of the universe and everything in it. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Admin Director Posts: 13038 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Hi ICANT,
Do you believe gravity or the origin of the universe are key to making your case for the supernatural? If not, please drop these topics, it isn't worth the time it is obviously going to take for you and everyone else to reach some common ground of understanding. But if these topics are important to making your case then please continue, but first please explain how, because I don't yet see any connection.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Admin,
Admin writes: Do you believe gravity or the origin of the universe are key to making your case for the supernatural? The origin of the universe has everything to do with any argument for the Supernatural Power I call God. Either the origin of the universe is supernatural or a natural accident, or occurrence if you prefer. The workings of the universe such as gravity has everything to do with either a supernatural power or a natural power. Either gravity is an accident, or natural occurrence if you prefer, or it is a planned event by a supernatural power. Everything is controlled by a supernatural power or a natural power and that is what we have been discussing in this thread. This is the original question I have been trying to answer that GIA asked.
quote: I believe in a supernatural power which I call God.I believe the origin of the universe is the best argument for a supernatural power. That is the reason I have presented the things I have in this thread. I presented what I would be arguing in Message 46 concerning the origin of the universe that I believe requires a Supernatural Power for the universe to have a beginning to exist. If the universe had no beginning to exist which is the standard theory I am wasting our time. At present there is no other theory. There are a couple of hypothesis that have been put forth which have more problems than the standard theory. Even though they are proposed in order to do away with the problems of the standard theory. If the universe has eternally existed then I need to change my argumentation. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
That statement would require that energy existed eternally in the past. It only requires that energy exists for all of time, which is the model I am using. You are still stuck in a false dichotomy, you have been stuck in it since you joined this forum. This is a third option.
If the energy existed eternally in the past, why did it wait so long to create the universe? Why did God, in your model?
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Do you believe gravity or the origin of the universe are key to making your case for the supernatural? The Cosmological Argument goes back at least to Aristotle's First Cause or Prime Mover.
quote: From Wiki. This is more or less the argument that ICANT is using.
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 301 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
Modulous
So you are saying that cause and effect are real except in the case of God even though no God has ever been proven to exist.That does not seem to be quite an honest way to think. One could then also say that there was a mother and father God and Goddess who gave birth to your God. Better to be honest and like science, end with a God of the Gaps instead of just an imaginary construct created out of your denial of cause and effect in the case of your God. RegardsDL
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Admin Director Posts: 13038 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ICANT writes: The workings of the universe such as gravity has everything to do with either a supernatural power or a natural power. Either gravity is an accident, or natural occurrence if you prefer, or it is a planned event by a supernatural power. I'm going to have to ask you to make progress on your view that gravity has a supernatural origin or drop it. Your current approach of arguing that science is wrong does not appear to be an argument for the supernatural. If you think it is then please explain.
I presented what I would be arguing in Message 46 concerning the origin of the universe that I believe requires a Supernatural Power for the universe to have a beginning to exist. Message 46 is a statement of belief. You've been arguing that the scientific explanations for the origin of the universe are wrong in some way. Are you arguing that if science is wrong therefore the supernatural exists? If so then please explain the logic. If your position is something else then please explain. My main concern is keeping the thread on topic about whether there's a supernatural. Given that the history of science is full of mistakes it seems to me that whether science is at the moment right or wrong about gravity or cosmology is beside the point when it comes to the supernatural, but I would be happy to entertain arguments that that's not true.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi NoNukes,
NoNukes writes: Your argument does not tell us how energy could ever be lost regardless of how long the universe existed. If energy cannot be destroyed, it cannot be used up simply by the passage of time. As energy is changed from one form to another entropy takes place and some of the energy becomes unavailable to do work.. Over enough duration of existence entropy would cause all the energy in the universe to become unavailable to do work. and the universe would die a cold death.
NoNukes writes: Sure, now what is the total amount of energy in the universe including all of the mass, kinetic and gravitational potential energy? What if I told you that the total amount of energy is something close to zero? I would say you had been reading Alan Guth or listening to someone who had. Has his hypothesis reached a consensus yet? Better yet is there any evidence for such a hypothesis?
NoNukes writes: Why don't you prove that statement to be true? Perhaps it is not. Why don't you prove it to be false? There have been millions of dollars spent trying to produce life from non life and no one has to date produced life from non life. Producing existence from non existence is a whole different ball game. Those who have been trying to produce life from non life have been using chemicals to produce life. Take away their chemicals, their tools and their lab even themselves the universe and everything else and produce existence from non existence. The following is a Ancient Greek argument.
quote: Existence from non existence reminds me of a story about God and a scientist walking along talking about making mankind. God said to the scientist I made mankind out of dirt. The scientist said, no problem I can do the same and reached down and got a hand full of dirt. God said wait a minute you can't take my dirt and make your man. You have to provide your own dirt. That would be existence from non existence.
NoNukes writes: I don't believe the universe existed eternally in the past, but you have not managed to show any such thing. The universe is not a cold dead entity which is proof enough that the universe has not always existed. If you disagree with entropy please explain why? God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Admin,
Admin writes: Are you arguing that if science is wrong therefore the supernatural exists? If so then please explain the logic. If your position is something else then please explain. I am arguing that if the present scientific view as presented at EvC is correct then there can be no supernatural anything. So for any argumentation for a Supernatural Power to exist stands in direct opposition to the EvC scientific view. Both can not be correct. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
So you are saying that cause and effect are real except in the case of God even though no God has ever been proven to exist. I am neither ICANT, Aristotle nor William Lane Craig. I was saying that they used or are using the cosmological argument to argue in favour of the existence of God and that therefore the cosmological argument should be considered on topic for discussion, though progress is not expected. The model of the universe I am arguing with ICANT is a godless universe which does not have a cause.
That does not seem to be quite an honest way to think. You should employ the principle of charity more regularly and you might avoid making mistakes of this degree in the future.
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Admin Director Posts: 13038 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ICANT writes: I am arguing that if the present scientific view as presented at EvC is correct then there can be no supernatural anything. I don't think anyone here in this thread is arguing that science rules out the supernatural. If that is your argument then I think most here would disagree with you, but you're more than welcome to make that argument. If you or anyone has been pursuing that line of argument then I somehow missed it.
So for any argumentation for a Supernatural Power to exist stands in direct opposition to the EvC scientific view. I don't think there's just one EvC scientific view on anything, let alone the topics in this thread. If there's someone in this thread you're arguing against then please direct your arguments to them. This conversation is just going on and on with no sign of resolution, each response from you changes the subject, so I'm going to bring this to a close now. I will be enforcing the Forum Guidelines, which include staying on topic and moving discussion constructively forward. Please, no replies to this message.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
I have an alternative wording that may or may not help. The model I am describing Spacetime is synonymous with existence.
Speculating about things that are outside of existence is literally speculating on the non-existent. Existence didn't come from some place or time. You can't talk of some place of infinite energy or power outside of existence that must be in order to create existence. It by definition does not exist. In this philosophical model, based on general relativity cosmology.
That statement would require that energy existed eternally in the past. Existence has a finite past.
The energy just existing would require some place to exist, where did it exist? The universe did not exist. Existence has never not existed. The energy exists. It has a finite history. Energy exists throughout space and time in varying concentrations. The statement 'the universe did not exist' makes as much sense as 'existence did not exist'. Such a state has never existed, nor could it - by definition. The same shields and foils you use can be deployed against your own model showing that the 'supernatural' hypothesis has no merits above the 'natural' one. Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
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