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Author Topic:   Should countries outlaw the hijab, niqab and burka?
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 256 of 372 (773901)
12-10-2015 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Greatest I am
12-10-2015 1:20 PM


free to wear what I wanna wear
It does not but if we ignore all signs of oppression then who will be left to save our sorry asses when oppressors come for us who say we are free but will not do what is required to insure that all share the freedom we say we have?
The hijab is not a sign of oppression any more than the mantilla, apostolnik, mitre or yamulkah I mentioned earlier.
That is you first duty as a free person. Do it.
My duty includes fighting for others to be free. Even if it means wearing yellow and green stripey socks, brown sandals and a pink skirt. Or a hijab.
I fight people who seek to restrict freedom, such as yourself, with puritanical views on what free people are allowed to voluntarily wear.
quote:
First they came for the terrorists but I did nothing because I'm not a terrorist. Then they came for the extremists, but I did nothing because I'm not an extremist. Then they came for the moderates, but I did nothing because I'm not a moderate. Finally, they came for the single mothers, but by then everybody was hysterical and thought it wasn't enough.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Greatest I am, posted 12-10-2015 1:20 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Greatest I am, posted 12-10-2015 3:07 PM Modulous has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 295 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 257 of 372 (773910)
12-10-2015 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by Modulous
12-10-2015 1:43 PM


Re: free to wear what I wanna wear
Modulous
Voluntary is the key word.
We are all subject to governments, not to misogynous Muslim men.
You have given nothing to help forced women.
Quite easy to say what you do not like what I propose but quite harder to suggest what might free those who are oppressed.
You are not hurting me at all but are hurting women who are oppressed.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Modulous, posted 12-10-2015 1:43 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Modulous, posted 12-11-2015 4:38 AM Greatest I am has replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8534
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 258 of 372 (773922)
12-10-2015 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Greatest I am
12-10-2015 1:14 PM


Nowhere in the Muslim holy books is it said to be a sign of being devout in the wearing of such garb.
Again, your ignorance shows. Go back and try again.
No, I'm not going to do your research for you, the research you should have already done.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Greatest I am, posted 12-10-2015 1:14 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Greatest I am, posted 12-11-2015 12:53 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 259 of 372 (773930)
12-11-2015 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by Greatest I am
12-09-2015 9:53 PM


But it would show Muslim men and their oppressive regimes that they are not compatible with our values and we will not tolerate open displays of their making second class citizens of their women and daughters.
But the women very often don't see it any different than what Western society might differentiate between wearing a dress or pants. If a woman chooses to wear a dress, or pants, or a head covering, it is her right.
IF she is being oppressed or coerced, she is free to contact the authorities if she is able. I am not at all underplaying the extreme misogyny that is often found in Islam, I am simply saying that not all Muslim women are "forced" to wear them and that banning them would cause more harm than good.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Greatest I am, posted 12-09-2015 9:53 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Greatest I am, posted 12-11-2015 12:49 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 260 of 372 (773933)
12-11-2015 4:38 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Greatest I am
12-10-2015 3:07 PM


Re: free to wear what I wanna wear
Voluntary is the key word.
Yes it is. And you want to restrict voluntary action, which is the opposite of freedom.
We are all subject to governments, not to misogynous Muslim men.
This thought doesn't seem connected to anything.
You have given nothing to help forced women.
Nor have you. All you have done is make suggestions for forcing free women and forcing forced women into choosing between their government and their religion and their marriage.
Quite easy to say what you do not like what I propose but quite harder to suggest what might free those who are oppressed.
Well, yes if we are talking about reasonable and intelligent suggestions to free the oppressed - that is a bigger challenge that defeating your naive argument.
My first suggestion is that we don't do what you suggest as it is as oppressive as banning the yarmulkah.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Greatest I am, posted 12-10-2015 3:07 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Greatest I am, posted 12-11-2015 12:57 PM Modulous has replied

Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2390 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


(1)
Message 261 of 372 (773940)
12-11-2015 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by Greatest I am
12-10-2015 1:10 PM


Re: Not in MY Courtroom!
I believe in a political system that the world has yet to form. Socrates would call it a Timocratic system.
It is basically a system run by duty and honor while at the same time being quite intolerant and in fact quite tyrannical in the case of those who break the law.
From here :
A timocracy is a state where only property owners may participate in government. The more extreme forms of timocracy, where power derives entirely from wealth with no regard for social or civic responsibility, may shift in their form and become a plutocracy where the wealthy and powerful use their power to entrench their wealth.
In The Republic, Plato describes five regimes (of which four are unjust). Timocracy is listed as the first "unjust" regime.
That's your idea of morals?
So yes, intolerance is a quality in many cases as it means, in this one, that I will not tolerate an immoral religion and ideology like Islam and Sharia to come into my country if I can help it.
Who's going to choose what to tolerate or not? You?
I knew your ideas were scary but not as much as they actually are. I'm glad we have laws and charters of rights to protect us from people who think like you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Greatest I am, posted 12-10-2015 1:10 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Greatest I am, posted 12-11-2015 12:59 PM Bliyaal has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 262 of 372 (773947)
12-11-2015 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Greatest I am
12-10-2015 1:16 PM


Re: Not in MY Courtroom!
Greatest I am writes:
An oppressed woman would likely not agree.
"Likely" would not agree? You've been shown testimony from women who DO want to wear the hijab. There's no "likely" about it. They DO NOT agree with YOU.
You're talking about some hypothetical women who are being "forced" by their husbands to wear the hijab and you're using that as an excuse to oppress ALL Muslim women. Shame on you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Greatest I am, posted 12-10-2015 1:16 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Greatest I am, posted 12-11-2015 1:01 PM ringo has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 295 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 263 of 372 (773957)
12-11-2015 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Hyroglyphx
12-11-2015 3:01 AM


Hyroglyphx
I see it as doing more good for the majority than harm to the oppressed as I see the majority not wanting to be forced to wear what they do not want to wear.
If and when law makers look at such a ban, statistics will play a major role and so far, my side looks good.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-11-2015 3:01 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Bliyaal, posted 12-11-2015 12:53 PM Greatest I am has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 295 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 264 of 372 (773958)
12-11-2015 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by AZPaul3
12-10-2015 7:10 PM


AZPaul3
You shop that you have not done your own research. Quite lazy of you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7IrvkhUb3Y
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by AZPaul3, posted 12-10-2015 7:10 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by AZPaul3, posted 12-11-2015 4:18 PM Greatest I am has replied

Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2390 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


Message 265 of 372 (773959)
12-11-2015 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Greatest I am
12-11-2015 12:49 PM


Am I right if I say that you seems to be against every bills/charters of rights protecting the rights of the minorities from the dictatorship of the majority?
For your sake, I hope you never find yourself in the minority position.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Greatest I am, posted 12-11-2015 12:49 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Greatest I am, posted 12-11-2015 1:04 PM Bliyaal has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 295 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 266 of 372 (773960)
12-11-2015 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Modulous
12-11-2015 4:38 AM


Re: free to wear what I wanna wear
Modulous
I said.
Voluntary is the key word.
You replied.
Yes it is. And you want to restrict voluntary action, which is the opposite of freedom.
----------
Are you serious?
Every law we have are designed to restrict voluntary actions are they not?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Modulous, posted 12-11-2015 4:38 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Modulous, posted 12-11-2015 1:13 PM Greatest I am has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 295 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 267 of 372 (773961)
12-11-2015 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by Bliyaal
12-11-2015 8:20 AM


Re: Not in MY Courtroom!
Bliyaal
You ignore what I put and use an extreme form of what I put to make your case.
Nice honesty that.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Bliyaal, posted 12-11-2015 8:20 AM Bliyaal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Bliyaal, posted 12-11-2015 1:43 PM Greatest I am has not replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 295 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 268 of 372 (773962)
12-11-2015 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by ringo
12-11-2015 10:38 AM


Re: Not in MY Courtroom!
ringo
You ignored my use of the word oppressed.
You are the one who should feel shame.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by ringo, posted 12-11-2015 10:38 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by ringo, posted 12-12-2015 10:38 AM Greatest I am has replied

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 295 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 269 of 372 (773963)
12-11-2015 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Bliyaal
12-11-2015 12:53 PM


Bliyaal
I am talking of the protection from oppression of a minority of Muslim women in our countries. Exactly what you say your constitution was created to do.
What are you talking about?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Bliyaal, posted 12-11-2015 12:53 PM Bliyaal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Bliyaal, posted 12-11-2015 1:49 PM Greatest I am has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 270 of 372 (773964)
12-11-2015 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Greatest I am
12-11-2015 12:57 PM


Re: free to wear what I wanna wear
Every law we have are designed to restrict voluntary actions are they not?
Yes.
"Everything which is not forbidden is allowed"
It makes it no less true that you want to restrict voluntary actions. This infringes on our freedom. There should be a compelling reason to restrict a freedom, something you have not provided.
Some homosexuals are nasty partners is not a reason to to ban homosexuality.
Some husbands dominate their wives is not a reason to outlaw certain items of clothing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Greatest I am, posted 12-11-2015 12:57 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Greatest I am, posted 12-11-2015 2:25 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

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