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Author Topic:   Should countries outlaw the hijab, niqab and burka?
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 212 of 372 (773711)
12-08-2015 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Tangle
12-07-2015 12:22 PM


Re: Not in MY Courtroom!
The judge said that it was a religious symbol which are not allowed in court - the court being a secular institution with no religious symbols anywhere - then compared her scarf to a hat or sunglasses. Weird.
I wonder if this judge refuses hearing the cases of women who show up wearing one of those small gold crosses on their necklace. I doubt it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2015 12:22 PM Tangle has not replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 215 of 372 (773752)
12-08-2015 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Bliyaal
12-08-2015 2:46 PM


Re: Not in MY Courtroom!
My opinion is that the judge was completely wrong but she should get along well with GIA. They should have a beer.
Can't be done. The judge in question is a she and GIA would try to tell her how to dress and she would throttle him before they got to the bar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Bliyaal, posted 12-08-2015 2:46 PM Bliyaal has not replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 230 of 372 (773827)
12-09-2015 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by Greatest I am
12-09-2015 4:49 PM


Re: Not in MY Courtroom!
We already have dress codes and giving Muslim women the same freedom as the rest of us have against oppression is quite a good idea.
It is an excellent idea so stop telling Muslim women they cannot wear a nijab.
In fact, it is our duty as free people to insure that all share that same freedom.
That's right, so stop telling Muslim women they cannot wear a nijab.
Why do you not want to end the oppression of Muslim women in our free lands?
Why do you want to continue to oppress them by telling them what they can and cannot wear?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Greatest I am, posted 12-09-2015 4:49 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Greatest I am, posted 12-09-2015 7:36 PM AZPaul3 has replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 236 of 372 (773844)
12-09-2015 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Greatest I am
12-09-2015 7:36 PM


Re: Not in MY Courtroom!
You go ahead and protect the oppressors.
I will continue to fight for the oppressed.
You are the oppressor. Or would be if you had your way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Greatest I am, posted 12-09-2015 7:36 PM Greatest I am has not replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 240 of 372 (773859)
12-10-2015 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by Greatest I am
12-09-2015 9:53 PM


It will also show the women that to our government, they are equal and not the second class citizens...
Not second class citizens until they make a clothing choice you disagree with, then you want the government to ... what? Arrest the woman for wearing a scarf? How about red spandex pants? Can we jail fat women for wearing tight red spandex pants? Please?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Greatest I am, posted 12-09-2015 9:53 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Greatest I am, posted 12-10-2015 9:37 AM AZPaul3 has replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 249 of 372 (773879)
12-10-2015 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by Greatest I am
12-10-2015 9:37 AM


Arrest! How cruel you are.
Me cruel? You cruel! You're the one who wants to punish the woman for wearing a scarf. My inquiry (you did see the question mark?) was to how cruel you wanted to be.
Why would we arrest someone already being oppressed by her husband?
Who said she is being oppressed by her husband?
Do you think the reason she wears a scarf is because it is forced against her will?
Is your knowledge of Islam that cursory and naive?
You need to find out why a devout believing Muslim woman would insist on wearing the hijab.
I'm thinking the reason you have not done so this deep into the discussion is because ... well you know ... Muslim. And you're not just opposed, you're bigoted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Greatest I am, posted 12-10-2015 9:37 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Greatest I am, posted 12-10-2015 1:14 PM AZPaul3 has replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 258 of 372 (773922)
12-10-2015 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Greatest I am
12-10-2015 1:14 PM


Nowhere in the Muslim holy books is it said to be a sign of being devout in the wearing of such garb.
Again, your ignorance shows. Go back and try again.
No, I'm not going to do your research for you, the research you should have already done.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Greatest I am, posted 12-10-2015 1:14 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Greatest I am, posted 12-11-2015 12:53 PM AZPaul3 has replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 277 of 372 (773976)
12-11-2015 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by Greatest I am
12-11-2015 12:53 PM


You shop that you have not done your own research. Quite lazy of you.
Unlike those who's intellectual honesty is lacking, like yourself, I do not enter discussions unprepared. Anyone even passingly familiar with Muslim modesty requirements would have cited this.
Sura 24:31
And no, you do not get to interpret it for anybody. Devout Muslim women get to interpret it for themselves.
Discussion by YouTube opinions is less than trustworthy or conscientious but since your weak mind wants to play that stupid-assed little game I'll oblige.
https://youtu.be/t1x5Zu18f7U
https://youtu.be/0jWSDyJiIXg
https://youtu.be/IXEenH4AnmU
https://youtu.be/Y330YukN1b0
https://youtu.be/uSFgHf8qdXo
Now tell them why you want this government to abuse their rights.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Greatest I am, posted 12-11-2015 12:53 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Greatest I am, posted 12-12-2015 12:42 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 291 by Greatest I am, posted 12-12-2015 1:17 PM AZPaul3 has replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 292 of 372 (774034)
12-12-2015 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Tangle
12-12-2015 11:25 AM


In those countries where they have been banned it has been for several reasons....
And what was banned was the full face covering like the burka hiding ones identity, not the hijab. There is only one reason to ban the hijab ... religious bigotry.
In this country there are already laws on the books addressing violence and coercion that also apply to man and wife. If someone thinks they are not strong enough then they can petition their legislature.
I, personally, wish the hijab, the cross and the star of david women wear would just go away, but in a land of freedom, religious freedom to be so adorned, these are protected speech (symbols) of personal conscience. The only reason to ban any of them is pure unadulterated religious bigotry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2015 11:25 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by Greatest I am, posted 12-12-2015 1:41 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 298 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2015 1:58 PM AZPaul3 has replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 295 of 372 (774038)
12-12-2015 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Greatest I am
12-12-2015 1:17 PM


You might have noted in the links you gave that those who say they are voluntarily wearing the garb in question are following the dictates of an imaginary God.
They are following a forced superstition and delusion. Anecdotal information like your is always useful but not nearly as much as statistical information.
So now you want to ban churches, synagogues, temples, prayer and all forms of personal conscience because people use them to follow the dictates of an imaginary God and follow a forced superstition and delusion.
You really don't understand the concept of freedom of conscience for all people do you.
I think someone above in this thread already alluded to this, but let me emphasize. The very reason this country has a Constitution with a strong Bill of Rights embedded is to protect us all from bigots like you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Greatest I am, posted 12-12-2015 1:17 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by Greatest I am, posted 12-12-2015 1:48 PM AZPaul3 has replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 299 of 372 (774059)
12-12-2015 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Tangle
12-12-2015 1:58 PM


For the third time, I am not in favour of a ban on the hijab. Is there something really difficult in what I have said that allows people to ignore those words?
Sorry, Tangle. I was using your message to emphasize the point to GIA whose proposal is to ban the hijab.
The only reason to ban any of them is pure unadulterated religious bigotry.
That's not correct. I've provided a couple of the arguments that France and Belgium have used successfully.
My statement was (supposed to be) limited to the hijab, cross and star of david that women wear. I was referring to only those three items in my "any of them" phrase.
I understand, and like you do not agree with, the European ban on full religious coverings that obscure the person's identity. I disagree but I understand the identity and social arguments the European's are making and I do not attribute those arguments solely to bigotry.
The hijab is my only focus as it seems to be GIA's focus. The hijab does not obscure the woman's face and is worn (mostly) from a religious modesty view. So, again, I contend, regardless of some perceived social benefit which I find as smokescreen for the reality, the only reason to ban women from wearing the little gold cross or the little gold star of david or the hijab is religious bigotry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2015 1:58 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2015 3:54 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 305 by Greatest I am, posted 12-13-2015 9:30 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 300 of 372 (774060)
12-12-2015 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Greatest I am
12-12-2015 1:41 PM


Muslims have taken that to mean that they can brag about their piety and do the one-upmanship that that entails in public.
Insulting other women around you is not a good way for a Muslim woman to integrate or assimilate.
Now, that is bullshit.
For all your opposition you know nothing of Islam ... or Christianity.
And wearing the hijab as a modesty directed by her view of her god is only an insult to the bigoted assholes who will find insult anywhere.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Greatest I am, posted 12-12-2015 1:41 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by Greatest I am, posted 12-13-2015 9:34 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 302 of 372 (774062)
12-12-2015 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by Greatest I am
12-12-2015 1:48 PM


You forget that those who immigrated to the U.S. were running from religious oppression ...
... and to a land where they could practice their flavor of religion, in their religious community without interference from the other guy's bishops.
Your constitution was designed to save us from religion.
To save us from an over-powering state-sponsored religion leaving the individual free to pursue his/her own religious conscience without interference from state-sanctioned bishops.
Islam, Christianity, US history, the First Amendment.
Freedom of conscience for all people to practice their religion as their view of their god dictates (with the caveat that they do no harm to others and their free conscience).
Do you understand any of the above? It does not appear you do.
Not to keep religions safe from us showing how immoral they are.
Well, you got one right. A lucky error I suspect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Greatest I am, posted 12-12-2015 1:48 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by Greatest I am, posted 12-13-2015 9:42 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 304 of 372 (774073)
12-12-2015 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Greatest I am
12-12-2015 12:42 PM


Hold That Weenie!
Now tell them why you want this government to abuse their rights.
There is no such thing as religious rights that are not granted by a government except your thinking.
quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...
Remember this? It's always been a big thing in my country. There are inalienable rights, we govern ourselves and the purpose of that government is to secure and protect these inalienable rights.
One of which is the freedom of conscience and that includes the freedom to practice our individual religions as we determine our individual gods dictate.
But you are not allowed to act on your thinking if it effects others negatively.
In my country the government is also not allowed to act if it affects an individual's right to freedom of conscience unless the reason is compelling to protect society from a clear and present danger. Your proposal to ban the hijab contains no such weight. It is born only of malice and bigotry.
We live in secular systems, not theocracies.
I live in a society with a secular government that is honor and duty bound by law to protect individual religious conscience and individual religious practice from those who would usurp our civil rights.
Sura 24:31 is men telling women how to act and dress and you seem to like men ordering their slaves.
That is your interpretation. Your interpretation means nothing. To the devout Muslim woman this Sura may be the voice of her god instructing her on how to be modest in dress.
Would you like to be a Muslim woman?
Actually, I like my cock. I'll hang on to it ... often.
Edited by AZPaul3, : title

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Greatest I am, posted 12-12-2015 12:42 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by Greatest I am, posted 12-13-2015 9:54 AM AZPaul3 has replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 326 of 372 (774163)
12-14-2015 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by Greatest I am
12-13-2015 9:54 AM


Re: Hold That Weenie!
Her God has a prophet called Jesus who said that such displays of piety and modesty done for God should be done in private.
First, Jesus' command had to do with open displays of piety, not modesty of dress. I know why you want to include "modesty" in this line but it won't work.
To the devout muslim woman her god is allah and qur'an is his word. Jesus was a long ago prophet to be respected, not obeyed over the word of god.
How can you be in such a discussion as this and not know these thing? Muslims are not christians. To them Jesus is not god. And his teachings are not even in the chain of command let alone to be obeyed over god's word in the qur'an.
Also, GIA, Sura 24 has nothing to do with an open display of piety. Sura 24:31 is a command to modesty. Instruction on how the believer should behave. You have been so wrong about so many things this comes as no big surprise.
What you are saying is that religions are free to follow the secular rules and that they can believe but not act on the garbage they believe.
That is governments controlling religions and what they teach.
No, that is limiting the excesses of religious action when it infringes on other's inalienable rights. Exactly what we, the people, set up our government to do.
Too fine a line for your limited thinking abilities, I guess.
For instance, some European Muslim schools have been closed because they were teaching their children to be antiemetic.
I know it's just a spelling error on your part (we all make them), but this is hilarious. Thank you.
One of which is the freedom of conscience and that includes the freedom to practice our individual religions as we determine our individual gods dictate.
Try stoning a fornicator and see how quickly you are brought down.
I've said before that, in my country, religion is limited in action where it infringes on the rights of others. This is an excellent example of my government limiting religious actions, doing what we set the government up to do. Not telling religion what to think, not even telling religion what to teach, but protecting individual rights when anyone seeks to violate those rights.
Again, GIA, concepts too refined for your limited thinking.
No right is inalienable when you live under a government that has power over you. Rhetoric is not reality.
Then you reject the ideal this society seeks to achieve (with more or less success and a lot of work yet to be done).
If you cannot accept this ideal and help work toward it, if you reject this part of our culture, maybe it is you who ought to be leaving.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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