Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality.

There are no innocent. None are righteous. God punished the sacrificial lamb on behalf of the guilty(all of us) We condemned ourselves. God merely foresaw it and thus had the sacrificial lamb as Plan A from the beginning, even before Lucifer decided to raise up and become satan. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

We condemned ourselves through free will. why is Jesus death immoral? Who is the judge anyway? The problem with your line of thinking (which happens often with Gnostics) is that you claim the right to judge.

I've no problem with your passion and sincerity but Percy does have a point.

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Discussion should be focused on the substance of what is said. You demonstrate something is stupid by your evidence and arguments, in which case nothing more need be said.

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Neither of us agree with the other. Both of us probably think that each others beliefs are warped...so that much can be agreed upon. Beyond that, however....why do we think and believe the way that we do?I've watched many of your YouTube video links...and often watch many contrarian beliefs than my own. What actions must we take to insure that our beliefs are sincere? Perhaps the quest itself is sincere and the beliefs which we take upon ourselves are done truthfully, if perhaps naively.

I saw a good article in the NY Times. The Christmas RevolutionCheck it out and tell me what you think, Faith. (and everyone else)

Assuming that it is true that we believe God cannot lie....two possible responses are:
1) All of society has choices to listen to various and competing worldviews. Some of us prefer selective dogma and philosophy.(or believe that God speaks to us through different media) Others of us are hell bent on evidence alone...which means we trust our educational development as a species.2) God doesn't exist. Tangles logic is vindicated.Of course I tend to lean towards #1..... But isnt that true of any topic of secular origin as well? Look at how you guys argued about the Muslim clothing, for example. I closed that sucker...too many personal attacks.Heck...everything ever spoken is essentially manmade bunkum. The art of the debate and/or discussion is to attempt to present our interpretation of what is said and meant. Within Christianity, while there are many arguments, there are also many consensus view on the meaning of the Bible.Of course, some argue that they and they alone have either divine revelation or common sense. As long as we argue passionately, defending the position and not attacking each other personally, all is well at the Forum. Edited by Phat, : added

All that you have shown in your last two posts is that Jesus was foreknown to be part of the plan and that believers are a minority. And for a guy who claims not to give the ideas much thought, you seem to like hanging around (and Im glad you do! )

I have a question (actually several) for you, Greatest I AM---from what I understand, your Gnostic view espouses the idea that we all are manifestations of Gods presence on the earth. IIRC, you have said that we are the closest thing to god that there is...or something like that. Now...without resorting to any links or You Tube videos, I want you to answer the following questions for me to the best of your ability.1) Who is God? Is God a character or merely an active presence sorta like "The Force" in Star Wars?2) Do you pray and/or talk with God or do you see that idea as illogical?3) What is it about Gnostic Christianity that appeals to you? Why even have a need for God? Why not simply worship logic, Reason, and Reality?Edited by Phat, : spelling

We freely chose the wrong path. The only argument against free will maintains that we MUST choose only one path and not our own. If I freely chose not to give gravity much thought nor consideration, I would STILL be stuck on the ground! As far as strict determinism, my only response is "so what"? If thats the way it is then I never have had free will. Not much I can do about it except try my best to live as I want while alive. Which brings up a question! Do I even get a choice in living as I want? It gets even better! I believe that Jesus was not plan B in response to Lucifers choice (though perhaps foreknown) of becoming Satan. Jesus was Plan A before Lucifer even fell!At worst, one could argue that we are toy soldiers in the playpen of a Deity. I'm glad that we are not plastic, however and that we get to rant on social media forums! Such Fun! Most of the elves I know are in therapy for post traumatic fantasy syndrome...a symptom that appears after the holidaze. In essence they have joined a self elf group! Edited by Phat, : added jabberwocky

Perhaps we humans are not yet wise enough to be given such power.

Perhaps we had no choice to be fallen---unrighteous.(original sin defense) Assuming that there are two spirits:
1) The Holy Spirit,Creator of all seen and unseen
2) The rebellious spirit...allowed to exist by GOD yet not directly created by Him.God created potentialized evil. Lucifer became Satan through actualizing evil.God may well have written that script as well and Lucifer had no choice in the matter to become the evil one---nor do we have any choice...it is all pre-determined. In which case I have no reason to try and convert atheists nor do any churches have any need to exist.Its Gods play.So now we have a fully predetermined universe.Assuming we have no choice whether to serve (or acknowledge God) or not, does it matter to you personally what you do?

If this is true, why doesn't everyone see it? Also explain to me how you personally know that God is real, how you came to this conclusion in your life(time&place) and what your 3 top sources of inspiration are...We challenge each other and ask each other questions like this quite often here at EvC>

But you never answered my questions. What for? What motivated you? What was it and IS it that you are trying to teach? (Or are you simply trying to sell your writing?) Please understand---I am not against you for being a writer. I am challenging you to explain why you believe in what you write!Edited by Phat, : clarification

I have an open question for all:
IF God foreknew every future action, would that in and of itself be a problem?I know that one can easily argue that it wipes out free will, but so what?From our point of view we are still choosing how to act.

the basic counterargument is that we can never do anything apart from His foreknowledge...but I have no problem with that. After all, why would i want to do such a thing? Im not satan, after all.

Keep in mind that what God sees is you doing a future action that you chose. You couldn't deviate from it without changing your mind at that moment. You already chose the action. And lets say God observed you at time-point 1.15. You then changed your mind at 1.16. What we would then have is God observing you at 1.17 or later. God observes us changing our minds quite often. He also observes us doing what we chose to do.(at any given point in time)