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Author Topic:   Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality.
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12577
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 6 of 478 (774318)
12-16-2015 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
12-16-2015 6:27 AM


Only One I Am
Justice is when the guilty is punished. Injustice is when the innocent is punished.

Jesus, if you accept him as your savior, is you punishing the innocent instead of the guilty.

There are no innocent. None are righteous. God punished the sacrificial lamb on behalf of the guilty(all of us)
GIA,replying to Faith writes:

What you are saying then is God creates us as sinners and then condemns us for being what he created.

We condemned ourselves. God merely foresaw it and thus had the sacrificial lamb as Plan A from the beginning, even before Lucifer decided to raise up and become satan.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 12-16-2015 6:27 AM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Greatest I am, posted 12-16-2015 10:23 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12577
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 7 of 478 (774319)
12-16-2015 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Greatest I am
12-16-2015 9:10 AM


Was his condemnation of you that made him have to sacrifice himself in the first place also a gift?

Would you condemn someone and then turn around and die for them using an immoral tenet that says that people should profit from the punishment of an innocent person instead of a guilty one?

We condemned ourselves through free will. why is Jesus death immoral? Who is the judge anyway? The problem with your line of thinking (which happens often with Gnostics) is that you claim the right to judge.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Greatest I am, posted 12-16-2015 9:10 AM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Greatest I am, posted 12-16-2015 10:27 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12577
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 12 of 478 (774325)
12-16-2015 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Greatest I am
12-16-2015 10:40 AM


Re: Only One I Am
Phat

Apologies.

I've no problem with your passion and sincerity but Percy does have a point.
quote:
Discussion should be focused on the substance of what is said. You demonstrate something is stupid by your evidence and arguments, in which case nothing more need be said.
Neither of us agree with the other. Both of us probably think that each others beliefs are warped...so that much can be agreed upon. Beyond that, however....why do we think and believe the way that we do?

I've watched many of your YouTube video links...and often watch many contrarian beliefs than my own.

There is no way such a belief can be sincere but I take your point.
What actions must we take to insure that our beliefs are sincere? Perhaps the quest itself is sincere and the beliefs which we take upon ourselves are done truthfully, if perhaps naively.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Greatest I am, posted 12-16-2015 10:40 AM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Greatest I am, posted 12-16-2015 1:06 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12577
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 52 of 478 (775100)
12-28-2015 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
12-28-2015 3:22 AM


The Christmas Revolution
I saw a good article in the NY Times.

The Christmas Revolution

Check it out and tell me what you think, Faith. (and everyone else)


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 12-28-2015 3:22 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Faith, posted 12-28-2015 9:39 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 57 by kbertsche, posted 12-28-2015 11:52 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 12-28-2015 2:16 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12577
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 65 of 478 (775120)
12-28-2015 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Tangle
12-28-2015 2:04 PM


Untangling Communion
Tangle writes:

... the point that you both believe through prayer - talking to your god - that you have the correct interpretation. He's lying to at least one of you isn't he?

Assuming that it is true that we believe God cannot lie....two possible responses are:
1) All of society has choices to listen to various and competing worldviews. Some of us prefer selective dogma and philosophy.(or believe that God speaks to us through different media) Others of us are hell bent on evidence alone...which means we trust our educational development as a species.

2) God doesn't exist. Tangles logic is vindicated.

Of course I tend to lean towards #1.....

Tangle writes:

It's a hopeless mess where anything can be believed from the same words. It's obvious man-made bunkum that can can be seen directly from the text even before you get into the historicity of the thing.

But isnt that true of any topic of secular origin as well? Look at how you guys argued about the Muslim clothing, for example. I closed that sucker...too many personal attacks.

Heck...everything ever spoken is essentially manmade bunkum. The art of the debate and/or discussion is to attempt to present our interpretation of what is said and meant. Within Christianity, while there are many arguments, there are also many consensus view on the meaning of the Bible.

Of course, some argue that they and they alone have either divine revelation or common sense. As long as we argue passionately, defending the position and not attacking each other personally, all is well at the Forum.

Edited by Phat, : added


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Tangle, posted 12-28-2015 2:04 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12577
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 99 of 478 (775212)
12-30-2015 5:49 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Tangle
12-30-2015 3:35 AM


All that you have shown in your last two posts is that Jesus was foreknown to be part of the plan and that believers are a minority. And for a guy who claims not to give the ideas much thought, you seem to like hanging around (and Im glad you do! )

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2015 3:35 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2015 9:42 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12577
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 100 of 478 (775214)
12-30-2015 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
12-16-2015 6:27 AM


What God Is Like
I have a question (actually several) for you, Greatest I AM---from what I understand, your Gnostic view espouses the idea that we all are manifestations of Gods presence on the earth. IIRC, you have said that we are the closest thing to god that there is...or something like that. Now...without resorting to any links or You Tube videos, I want you to answer the following questions for me to the best of your ability.

1) Who is God? Is God a character or merely an active presence sorta like "The Force" in Star Wars?

2) Do you pray and/or talk with God or do you see that idea as illogical?

3) What is it about Gnostic Christianity that appeals to you? Why even have a need for God? Why not simply worship logic, Reason, and Reality?

Edited by Phat, : spelling


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 12-16-2015 6:27 AM Greatest I am has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12577
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 103 of 478 (775240)
12-30-2015 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Tangle
12-30-2015 9:42 AM


Foreknown and Determined
Tangle writes:

If the murder of Jesus was inevitable and part of the plan, where is our free will?

We freely chose the wrong path. The only argument against free will maintains that we MUST choose only one path and not our own. If I freely chose not to give gravity much thought nor consideration, I would STILL be stuck on the ground! As far as strict determinism, my only response is "so what"? If thats the way it is then I never have had free will. Not much I can do about it except try my best to live as I want while alive. Which brings up a question! Do I even get a choice in living as I want?
God knew that Jesus would be murdered because he's all knowing. Jesus had to be resurrected to be special. So, in fact, it was all just a script. God sent Jesus to be murdered, he was murdered because that was in the script. There was no option for him not to be murdered because if he wasn't, there could be no resurrection and therefore no redemption for the human race which was god's intent.
It gets even better!

I believe that Jesus was not plan B in response to Lucifers choice (though perhaps foreknown) of becoming Satan. Jesus was Plan A before Lucifer even fell!

At worst, one could argue that we are toy soldiers in the playpen of a Deity. I'm glad that we are not plastic, however and that we get to rant on social media forums! Such Fun!

it's like not believing in elves -...
Most of the elves I know are in therapy for post traumatic fantasy syndrome...a symptom that appears after the holidaze. In essence they have joined a self elf group!

Edited by Phat, : added jabberwocky


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2015 9:42 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 12-30-2015 2:28 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 107 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2015 2:42 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12577
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 105 of 478 (775247)
12-30-2015 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by ringo
12-30-2015 2:28 PM


Re: Foreknown and Determined
If there is a "wrong" path, it isn't a free choice.
Perhaps we humans are not yet wise enough to be given such power.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 12-30-2015 2:28 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by ringo, posted 12-30-2015 2:33 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12577
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 108 of 478 (775256)
12-30-2015 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Tangle
12-30-2015 2:42 PM


Re: Foreknown and Determined
I'm claiming that those at the time were acting on rails - they could do nothing else because if they did, the human race would not have been redeemed and god's plan would have failed. It's because god's plan could not fail, that there was no free choice involved.
Perhaps we had no choice to be fallen---unrighteous.(original sin defense) Assuming that there are two spirits:
1) The Holy Spirit,Creator of all seen and unseen
2) The rebellious spirit...allowed to exist by GOD yet not directly created by Him.

God created potentialized evil. Lucifer became Satan through actualizing evil.

God may well have written that script as well and Lucifer had no choice in the matter to become the evil one---

nor do we have any choice...it is all pre-determined. In which case I have no reason to try and convert atheists nor do any churches have any need to exist.

Its Gods play.

So now we have a fully predetermined universe.

Assuming we have no choice whether to serve (or acknowledge God) or not, does it matter to you personally what you do?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2015 2:42 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2015 5:26 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 133 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-01-2016 2:05 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12577
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 168 of 478 (775462)
01-02-2016 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Bob Bobber
01-01-2016 11:26 PM


The Story Of How Bobber Came To Believe
BB writes:

It kinda sounds like God is your buddy in the sky, my friend would never do anything evil. Yahweh has done nothing evil, Satan keeps attacking his creation? When it comes to these abnormal beings running around on God’s planet, he has promises he made and Satan will not win the war. Gen. 3:15, this story is written is the stars.

If this is true, why doesn't everyone see it? Also explain to me how you personally know that God is real, how you came to this conclusion in your life(time&place) and what your 3 top sources of inspiration are...

We challenge each other and ask each other questions like this quite often here at EvC>


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Bob Bobber, posted 01-01-2016 11:26 PM Bob Bobber has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Bob Bobber, posted 01-02-2016 2:21 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 171 by Bob Bobber, posted 01-02-2016 2:37 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12577
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 178 of 478 (775496)
01-02-2016 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Bob Bobber
01-02-2016 2:37 AM


Re: The Story Of How Bobber Came To Believe
But you never answered my questions.

Bobber writes:

I grew up in Cheyenne WY, just up the road from you. Spent over 30 trying to harmonize the four gospels...

What for? What motivated you? What was it and IS it that you are trying to teach? (Or are you simply trying to sell your writing?) Please understand---I am not against you for being a writer. I am challenging you to explain why you believe in what you write!

Edited by Phat, : clarification


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Bob Bobber, posted 01-02-2016 2:37 AM Bob Bobber has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12577
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 182 of 478 (775607)
01-03-2016 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Hyroglyphx
01-03-2016 2:39 AM


Re: Can't have it both ways
I have an open question for all:
IF God foreknew every future action, would that in and of itself be a problem?

I know that one can easily argue that it wipes out free will, but so what?

From our point of view we are still choosing how to act.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-03-2016 2:39 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by kbertsche, posted 01-03-2016 7:55 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12577
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 184 of 478 (775613)
01-03-2016 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by kbertsche
01-03-2016 7:55 AM


Re: Can't have it both ways
the basic counterargument is that we can never do anything apart from His foreknowledge...but I have no problem with that. After all, why would i want to do such a thing? Im not satan, after all.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by kbertsche, posted 01-03-2016 7:55 AM kbertsche has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by kbertsche, posted 01-03-2016 11:21 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 200 by ringo, posted 01-04-2016 11:08 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12577
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 193 of 478 (775680)
01-04-2016 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by GDR
01-03-2016 5:57 PM


Changing Ones Mind
That makes no sense. Using your analogy once God has looked out the window of time, (which in your view is the entire future), and observed you doing something, even before you were ever born, then that action is fixed and you have no free will to deviate from it.
Keep in mind that what God sees is you doing a future action that you chose. You couldn't deviate from it without changing your mind at that moment. You already chose the action. And lets say God observed you at time-point 1.15. You then changed your mind at 1.16. What we would then have is God observing you at 1.17 or later. God observes us changing our minds quite often. He also observes us doing what we chose to do.(at any given point in time)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by GDR, posted 01-03-2016 5:57 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by GDR, posted 01-04-2016 5:35 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
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