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Author Topic:   Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality.
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 574 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 1 of 478 (774308)
12-16-2015 6:27 AM


Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality.

Justice is when the guilty is punished. Injustice is when the innocent is punished.

Jesus, if you accept him as your savior, is you punishing the innocent instead of the guilty.

Most, perhaps all Christians believe the dogma that says that it is good to accept Jesus’s sacrifice.

That is exactly like saying that it is good to somehow gain from punishing an innocent man.

If you believe the Christian dogma of substitutionary atonement, then you pass Satan’s test and are ready for hell.

Are you ready?

Regards
DL


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 12-16-2015 8:10 AM Greatest I am has responded
 Message 6 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-16-2015 10:04 AM Greatest I am has responded
 Message 15 by kbertsche, posted 12-16-2015 1:03 PM Greatest I am has not yet responded
 Message 100 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-30-2015 7:56 AM Greatest I am has not yet responded

    
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 574 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 4 of 478 (774313)
12-16-2015 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
12-16-2015 8:10 AM


Faith

Why do you start our discussion with a lie?

"He chose to take my punishment on Himself,"

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

Further, Jesus always said that he was doing his fathers work and not his own.

You say, that his forgiveness was a gift. Was his condemnation of you that made him have to sacrifice himself in the first place also a gift?

Would you condemn someone and then turn around and die for them using an immoral tenet that says that people should profit from the punishment of an innocent person instead of a guilty one?

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 12-16-2015 8:10 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-16-2015 10:09 AM Greatest I am has responded
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 12-16-2015 12:16 PM Greatest I am has responded

    
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 574 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 5 of 478 (774314)
12-16-2015 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
12-16-2015 8:10 AM


Faith

"We're born into the sin nature and we don't waste any time adding our own miserable sins to the mix."

I took this from your rant.

What you are saying then is God creates us as sinners and then condemns us for being what he created. Right?

Unless we accept that it is good to profit from the murder of an innocent man that is. Right?

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 12-16-2015 8:10 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 574 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 8 of 478 (774320)
12-16-2015 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Thugpreacha
12-16-2015 10:04 AM


Re: Only One I Am
Phat

"There are no innocent. None are righteous. God punished the sacrificial lamb on behalf of the guilty(all of us"

Then if we are true to our God given programming, he is showing just how unjust his standards are.

Jesus was a human. Not a lamb.

Why are there none innocent or righteous if God wants some?

Why is he only creating guilty and un-righteous souls?

"We condemned ourselves."

If we condemn ourselves then we can set the sentence and free ourselves without having some innocent person suffer for us. Right?

BTW, that is a really stupid statement and beneath your IQ.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-16-2015 10:04 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Admin, posted 12-16-2015 10:32 AM Greatest I am has responded

    
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 574 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 9 of 478 (774321)
12-16-2015 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Thugpreacha
12-16-2015 10:09 AM


Phat

Is this not saying that you have the right to judge?

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

Why would you want to let someone else set your morality without you understanding why you hold certain morals?

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
Galileo Galilee


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-16-2015 10:09 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

    
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 574 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 11 of 478 (774323)
12-16-2015 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Admin
12-16-2015 10:32 AM


Re: Only One I Am
There is no way such a belief can be sincere but I take your point.

My bad.

-------------

Phat

Apologies.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Admin, posted 12-16-2015 10:32 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-16-2015 10:53 AM Greatest I am has responded

    
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 574 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 14 of 478 (774337)
12-16-2015 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
12-16-2015 12:16 PM


Faith

Now you lie again by saying chosen means a consensus.

And for that you hide behind a Trinity concept that no one understands since the three do not all share the same information which make the concept quite a foolish one.

You hide in fantasy and the supernatural while ignoring the immorality of you profiting from the murder of an innocent man.

I guess all these are out of context as well.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

Satan has you too strongly in hand for me. I give up.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 12-16-2015 12:16 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Admin, posted 12-16-2015 1:10 PM Greatest I am has not yet responded
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 12-16-2015 4:15 PM Greatest I am has not yet responded

    
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 574 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 16 of 478 (774339)
12-16-2015 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Thugpreacha
12-16-2015 10:53 AM


Re: Only One I Am
Phat

"why do we think and believe the way that we do?"

Many factors from indoctrination and brainwashing to whatever we have been taught by the reading etc. that we have done.

We should apply logic and reason to all of it if we can.

"What actions must we take to insure that our beliefs are sincere?"

Proofs are good. Take your statement of us condemning ourselves.
I gave a logic trail showing why I thought it a false statement. A sincere belief on your part would have also shown a logic trail.

My reply and rebuttal was a fair debate tactic showing why I thought as I dis. Your statement was not and dis not.

I note even now you have not even tried to refute what I put and that to any judge would make his rule in my favor.

I am not the brightest but do try to dot my i's and slash my t's.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-16-2015 10:53 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

    
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 574 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 23 of 478 (774427)
12-17-2015 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
12-16-2015 4:13 PM


Faith

" He died in our place for our sins,".

"and therefore could not die Himself".

Did Jesus die or not?

Regards
DL

Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 12-16-2015 4:13 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 12-17-2015 6:34 PM Greatest I am has responded

    
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 574 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 43 of 478 (775042)
12-26-2015 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Faith
12-17-2015 6:34 PM


Faith

Jesus was hardly sinless.

Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

Hebrews 5:8
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. ( Hebrews 13:8 )

Note how the last two contradict each other.

Bottom line is that if Jesus can die or learn anything new, he cannot be God.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 12-17-2015 6:34 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 574 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 44 of 478 (775043)
12-26-2015 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by kbertsche
12-17-2015 11:31 PM


kbertsche

I guess that someone did some thinking and recognized that only a really stupid shepherd would die for a sheep and abandon the rest of the herd to the wolves.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by kbertsche, posted 12-17-2015 11:31 PM kbertsche has not yet responded

    
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 574 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 45 of 478 (775045)
12-26-2015 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
12-18-2015 1:16 AM


Faith

Not if one knows that the laying down of ones life is a sham and lie ands that it can be picked up again.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 12-18-2015 1:16 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 574 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 46 of 478 (775046)
12-26-2015 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Faith
12-18-2015 11:46 AM


Faith

I do my fathers will and not my own.

Why have you forsaken me?

Jesus said to seek God and never said seek me.

What does that tell you?

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 12-18-2015 11:46 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 574 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 47 of 478 (775047)
12-26-2015 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Admin
12-18-2015 11:50 AM


Re: Moderator Provided Information
Admin

A good definition that does not really apply since Jesus supposedly knew that he would not really die.

Your definition does not include reincarnation or reanimation.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Admin, posted 12-18-2015 11:50 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by GDR, posted 12-27-2015 9:09 PM Greatest I am has responded

    
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 574 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 102 of 478 (775227)
12-30-2015 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by GDR
12-27-2015 9:09 PM


Re: Moderator Provided Information
GDR

" It was the resurrection of Jesus by the Father that affirmed and vindicated the life and message of Jesus and it was God the Father, the Ancient if Days that enthroned Jesus."

-----------

Sure. Scriptures have Jesus himself saying that all is done through the Fathers power and not his own.

But Jesus did not think he was to die in any permanent way.

The messiah myth stated that the messiah would live and rule over the Jews. Not die and not return. That is why most Jews still wait for their messiah.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by GDR, posted 12-27-2015 9:09 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by GDR, posted 12-30-2015 8:12 PM Greatest I am has not yet responded

    
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