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Author Topic:   Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality.
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 16 of 478 (774339)
12-16-2015 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
12-16-2015 10:53 AM


Re: Only One I Am
Phat
"why do we think and believe the way that we do?"
Many factors from indoctrination and brainwashing to whatever we have been taught by the reading etc. that we have done.
We should apply logic and reason to all of it if we can.
"What actions must we take to insure that our beliefs are sincere?"
Proofs are good. Take your statement of us condemning ourselves.
I gave a logic trail showing why I thought it a false statement. A sincere belief on your part would have also shown a logic trail.
My reply and rebuttal was a fair debate tactic showing why I thought as I dis. Your statement was not and dis not.
I note even now you have not even tried to refute what I put and that to any judge would make his rule in my favor.
I am not the brightest but do try to dot my i's and slash my t's.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 12-16-2015 10:53 AM Phat has not replied

  
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Director
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Message 17 of 478 (774340)
12-16-2015 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Greatest I am
12-16-2015 12:58 PM


Greatest I am writes:
Now you lie again by saying chosen means a consensus.
That's your idea of civility? Time that you took a break. See you tomorrow.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Greatest I am, posted 12-16-2015 12:58 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 18 of 478 (774359)
12-16-2015 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
12-16-2015 12:16 PM


Faith writes:
"I lay down my life for the sheep."
In context, that refers to a shepherd risking his life for his sheep, not actually dying. A dead shepherd is no use to the sheep.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 12-16-2015 12:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 12-16-2015 4:13 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 19 of 478 (774363)
12-16-2015 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by ringo
12-16-2015 3:58 PM


In context, that refers to a shepherd risking his life for his sheep, not actually dying. A dead shepherd is no use to the sheep.
O come on; analogies and metaphors aren't meant to be stretched to fit reality exactly. This particular dead "shepherd" is of immense use to the "sheep" since He was perfectly sinless and therefore could not die Himself no matter how many people's sins He bore on the cross. He died in our place for our sins, us poor miserable sinful sheep who are destined to Hell, and then rose again to a new form of life which we will inherit through believing on Him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by ringo, posted 12-16-2015 3:58 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by ringo, posted 12-17-2015 10:45 AM Faith has replied
 Message 23 by Greatest I am, posted 12-17-2015 3:33 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 20 of 478 (774364)
12-16-2015 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Greatest I am
12-16-2015 12:58 PM


Jhn 10:18
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Greatest I am, posted 12-16-2015 12:58 PM Greatest I am has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Stile, posted 12-17-2015 10:43 AM Faith has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 21 of 478 (774400)
12-17-2015 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
12-16-2015 4:15 PM


Faith writes:
Jhn 10:18
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
I tooketh it from Him.
Then I gave it back... 'cause it wasn't done cookin' yet.
...
I see it still needs more time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 12-16-2015 4:15 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 22 of 478 (774401)
12-17-2015 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
12-16-2015 4:13 PM


Faith writes:
O come on; analogies and metaphors aren't meant to be stretched to fit reality exactly.
I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just pointing out that you're using the wrong metaphor. In the example you gave, Jesus was talking about risking His life - or in a broader sense, devoting His life - not actually dying. It refers back to the shepherd metaphor in the Old testament - e.g. Psalm 23 - which is about protection, not blood sacrifice.
Jesus also used the sacrificial lamb metaphor, which also refers back to the Old Testament. You just need to use the right metaphor for the right occasion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 12-16-2015 4:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Faith, posted 12-17-2015 6:36 PM ringo has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 23 of 478 (774427)
12-17-2015 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
12-16-2015 4:13 PM


Faith
" He died in our place for our sins,".
"and therefore could not die Himself".
Did Jesus die or not?
Regards
DL
Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 12-16-2015 4:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 12-17-2015 6:34 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 24 of 478 (774444)
12-17-2015 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Greatest I am
12-17-2015 3:33 PM


Of course He died. For us though, since on His own He couldn't die, being sinless. He chose to die for the sins of others.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Greatest I am, posted 12-17-2015 3:33 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Greatest I am, posted 12-26-2015 1:00 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 25 of 478 (774445)
12-17-2015 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by ringo
12-17-2015 10:45 AM


Ringo, I don't know what convoluted irrelevant point you are trying to make, since you don't provide quotes to show me what you mean by the context, but "lay down my life" means DIE, not "risk" dying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by ringo, posted 12-17-2015 10:45 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by kbertsche, posted 12-17-2015 11:31 PM Faith has replied
 Message 28 by ringo, posted 12-18-2015 11:03 AM Faith has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 26 of 478 (774454)
12-17-2015 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Faith
12-17-2015 6:36 PM


I think Ringo has made some important observations and comments here which we can expand on.
First, the imagery that Jesus (and John) uses in John 10 harkens back to the OT, where God is referred to as the "Shepherd" of His flock (Pss. 23, 80; Ecc. 12; Isa. 40; Jer. 31). Jesus applies this divine imagery to Himself. This would have been seen by His original audience as a strong, clear claim to Jesus' deity.
Second, as Ringo says, the imagery in the OT showed God as the protector of His flock, but not as actually giving His life for His flock. Jn 10:11 and 15 are somewhat ambiguous; they could be seen either as promising strong protection or as promising an actual sacrifice of His life:
quote:
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
John 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Fatherand I lay down my life for the sheep.
But v. 17 removes any doubt:
quote:
John 10:17 This is why the Father loves me—because I lay down my life, so that I may take it back again.
Thus Jesus has extended the OT analogy and made it much richer. He is not only the shepherd-protector of His flock, He is a shepherd who will actually die for His flock and then come back to life.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Faith, posted 12-17-2015 6:36 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 12-18-2015 1:16 AM kbertsche has replied
 Message 44 by Greatest I am, posted 12-26-2015 1:05 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 27 of 478 (774458)
12-18-2015 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by kbertsche
12-17-2015 11:31 PM


OK. It does show that He claims to be God, which is a good point to try to make. But I don't see anything ambiguous about "laying down" one's life. It can only mean to die it seems to me.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by kbertsche, posted 12-17-2015 11:31 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by kbertsche, posted 12-18-2015 11:18 AM Faith has replied
 Message 45 by Greatest I am, posted 12-26-2015 1:06 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 28 of 478 (774476)
12-18-2015 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Faith
12-17-2015 6:36 PM


Faith writes:
I don't know what convoluted irrelevant point you are trying to make, since you don't provide quotes to show me what you mean by the context...
I meant the context of your quote, which I quoted you as quoting.
Faith writes:
... "lay down my life" means DIE, not "risk" dying.
Clearly not. If a shepherd dies, there is nobody to protect the sheep. A shepherd tries hard NOT to die for that reason (among others).
I'm not arguing against the idea of Jesus' blood sacrifice. I'm just pointing out that the metaphor you quoted doesn't apply to blood sacrifice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Faith, posted 12-17-2015 6:36 PM Faith has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


(1)
Message 29 of 478 (774481)
12-18-2015 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
12-18-2015 1:16 AM


Faith writes:
OK. It does show that He claims to be God, which is a good point to try to make. But I don't see anything ambiguous about "laying down" one's life. It can only mean to die it seems to me.
In the context of the entirety of John 10, esp. 10:17, I agree with you. But Ringo's point is that Jesus was using an OT metaphor of God as a shepherd-protector (Ps 23, Is 40, etc), which had no suggestion of the shepherd dying. My point is that Jesus has appropriated the same OT metaphor, but has expanded it to include the sacrificial death of the shepherd-protector for the flock.
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 12-18-2015 1:16 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 12-18-2015 11:27 AM kbertsche has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 30 of 478 (774483)
12-18-2015 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by kbertsche
12-18-2015 11:18 AM


Seems like a lot of merely distracting ado about nothing to me. He identified Himself with God as the Shepherd of His people and expanded the metaphor to include His own dying as the Good Shepherd. Ringo is just insisting on an irrelevant logical point of his own, or at best holding to the original OT context for no useful reason.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by kbertsche, posted 12-18-2015 11:18 AM kbertsche has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by ringo, posted 12-18-2015 11:29 AM Faith has replied

  
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