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Author Topic:   Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality.
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 31 of 478 (774484)
12-18-2015 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Faith
12-18-2015 11:27 AM


Faith writes:
Ringo is just insisting on holding to the original OT context for no useful reason.
I'm not insisting on anything. I'm pointing out how you could hone your argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 12-18-2015 11:27 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 12-18-2015 11:46 AM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 32 of 478 (774488)
12-18-2015 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by ringo
12-18-2015 11:29 AM


Hone my argument? Against GIA who thinks Jesus was made a sacrifice against His will? The point that He chose to lay down His life ought to be sufficient to answer that without whatever point you are trying to make, which simply eludes me and makes me sleepy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by ringo, posted 12-18-2015 11:29 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 12-18-2015 11:57 AM Faith has replied
 Message 46 by Greatest I am, posted 12-26-2015 1:09 PM Faith has not replied

  
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(1)
Message 33 of 478 (774489)
12-18-2015 11:50 AM


Moderator Provided Information
In the interest of not letting discussion bog down unnecessarily, this information comes from Google:
quote:
lay down one's life
phrase of lay
  1. sacrifice one's life for a cause.
    "he laid down his life for his country"

For the sake of letting discussion proceed on the main topic, let us accept this definition in this thread.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Greatest I am, posted 12-26-2015 1:12 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 34 of 478 (774491)
12-18-2015 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Faith
12-18-2015 11:46 AM


Faith writes:
Hone my argument? Against GIA who thinks Jesus was made a sacrifice against His will?
Which one of you is the parakeet and which is the image in the mirror?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 12-18-2015 11:46 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 12-18-2015 12:44 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 35 of 478 (774503)
12-18-2015 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by ringo
12-18-2015 11:57 AM


Excuse me? You aren't making any sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 12-18-2015 11:57 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by ringo, posted 12-19-2015 11:42 AM Faith has not replied

  
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2892 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


(1)
Message 36 of 478 (774512)
12-18-2015 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
12-16-2015 8:10 AM


If I don't accept it (Jesus' sacrifice) I go to Hell
Where do you get this from? What I mean by that is where does it say that if you do not accept that Jesus died for our sins means that you are going to Hell? From a logical standpoint, if Jesus in fact did die for our sins it does not make sense that unbelief in that act would condemn a person to hell - assuming you are saying unbelief is sin and that any sin puts a person in Hell. If unbelief is sin, is that sin not also not accounted for by the sacrifice of Jesus?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 12-16-2015 8:10 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 12-19-2015 4:43 AM deerbreh has not replied
 Message 40 by kbertsche, posted 12-19-2015 1:26 PM deerbreh has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 37 of 478 (774576)
12-19-2015 4:43 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by deerbreh
12-18-2015 2:30 PM


All are condemned
Sorry I didn't see this until now.
If I don't accept it (Jesus' sacrifice) I go to Hell
Where do you get this from? What I mean by that is where does it say that if you do not accept that Jesus died for our sins means that you are going to Hell? From a logical standpoint, if Jesus in fact did die for our sins it does not make sense that unbelief in that act would condemn a person to hell - assuming you are saying unbelief is sin and that any sin puts a person in Hell. If unbelief is sin, is that sin not also not accounted for by the sacrifice of Jesus?
The idea is that we are all ALREADY condemned to Hell because of our sins, but salvation is possible through Christ if we accept it. If we don't, we are still condemned to Hell.
These are the most direct quotes I could locate:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
However, if you know the gospel and refuse it you are in a worse position than someone who never heard it; at least if you accepted it and lived it before giving it up:
Hebrews 10:28-29: He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 38 of 478 (774577)
12-19-2015 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
12-19-2015 4:43 AM


Re: All are condemned
Faith writes:
The idea is that we are all ALREADY condemned to Hell because of our sins, but salvation is possible through Christ if we accept it. If we don't, we are still condemned to Hell.
Yep, the most heinous scam ever perpetrated. 'You're going to hell unless you join my global pyramid scheme'.
Empires were built on that single, revolting lie.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 12-19-2015 4:43 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 39 of 478 (774589)
12-19-2015 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Faith
12-18-2015 12:44 PM


Faith writes:
Excuse me? You aren't making any sense.
I'm saying that you might as well be arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. GIA is correct that the theology is nonsense and you are correct that his interpretation of it is nonsense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 12-18-2015 12:44 PM Faith has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 40 of 478 (774599)
12-19-2015 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by deerbreh
12-18-2015 2:30 PM


deerbreh writes:
Where do you get this from? What I mean by that is where does it say that if you do not accept that Jesus died for our sins means that you are going to Hell?
Scripture is very clear on this, as Faith has shown.
From a logical standpoint, if Jesus in fact did die for our sins it does not make sense that unbelief in that act would condemn a person to hell - assuming you are saying unbelief is sin and that any sin puts a person in Hell. If unbelief is sin, is that sin not also not accounted for by the sacrifice of Jesus?
This is a good question. If Jesus died to pay for all of our sins, didn't He also pay for the sin of unbelief? This can be explained in a few different ways, and there are some slight variations among the various branches of Christendom. But most Evangelicals would agree with the following:
Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is sufficient to pay for all of the sins of everyone who ever has or ever will live. But it is effective in paying for the sins of only those who believe in Him. The penalty for all of our sins has already been paid, but this payment is only credited to the sinner's account if he believes in Jesus. If someone dies without faith in Christ, he dies "in his sins", and ends up paying the penalty of his own sins in hell.
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by deerbreh, posted 12-18-2015 2:30 PM deerbreh has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 12-19-2015 1:35 PM kbertsche has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 41 of 478 (774600)
12-19-2015 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by kbertsche
12-19-2015 1:26 PM


kbetsche writes:
... this payment is only credited to the sinner's account if he believes in Jesus.
You have to cash the cheque.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by kbertsche, posted 12-19-2015 1:26 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by kbertsche, posted 12-19-2015 4:35 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


(1)
Message 42 of 478 (774609)
12-19-2015 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by ringo
12-19-2015 1:35 PM


ringo writes:
You have to cash the cheque.
Essentially, yes. The more common biblical descriptions of this "cashing the check" metaphor are believing, receiving, accepting, submitting, repenting.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 12-19-2015 1:35 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 43 of 478 (775042)
12-26-2015 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Faith
12-17-2015 6:34 PM


Faith
Jesus was hardly sinless.
Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
Hebrews 5:8
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. ( Hebrews 13:8 )
Note how the last two contradict each other.
Bottom line is that if Jesus can die or learn anything new, he cannot be God.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 12-17-2015 6:34 PM Faith has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 44 of 478 (775043)
12-26-2015 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by kbertsche
12-17-2015 11:31 PM


kbertsche
I guess that someone did some thinking and recognized that only a really stupid shepherd would die for a sheep and abandon the rest of the herd to the wolves.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by kbertsche, posted 12-17-2015 11:31 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 45 of 478 (775045)
12-26-2015 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
12-18-2015 1:16 AM


Faith
Not if one knows that the laying down of ones life is a sham and lie ands that it can be picked up again.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 12-18-2015 1:16 AM Faith has not replied

  
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