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Author | Topic: RationalWiki.org site and Operation Northwoods | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2326 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
I was just reading this site when I checked my mail and saw I got my invitation approved. Since this is momentarily on my mind, I'll address this issue.
This site claims to be
quote: Then on the 9/11 issue, they say this about Operation Northwoods.
quote: 9/11 - RationalWiki and their unsupported claim that only "a few members" of the government were involved in an isolated plan that presidents always opposed got my attention because I happen to have just gotten a copy of James Bamford's authoritative book which covered this issue in 12 pages. I'll show some of what he had to say and let you decide if this "rationalist" site is using good science/observational skills.
quote: I'm not sure this rationalist site was 100% accurate in their presentation of the "false-flag" type of plans during the early 1960s. And Lemnitzer went to lead NATO within months after he left the Joint Chiefs. There are rumors I hear about something called "Operation Gladio" but I can't find any definitive source which details exactly whether these "NATO false-flags" actually happened. I do know that the Watergate hearing presented us with the only evidence to date that the CIA targeted an American civilian (journalist Jack Anderson) on American soil for death. But that was a "black letter" which was against a former employee who was spilling secrets. So in 1972, the CIA was performing operations against American civilians. It isn't the "false flag" issue though it does show that both the U.S. military and CIA have targeted civilians on American soil for death.
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Admin Director Posts: 13018 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Welcome to the fray, LamarkNewAge.
9-11 and - RationalWiki their unsupported claim that only "a few members" of the government were involved in an isolated plan that presidents always opposed got my attention ... My personal opinion is that conspiracy theories arise when people have trouble comprehending what has occurred, particularly when it is counter to firmly held beliefs (such as belief that the US is on the side of good so why would anyone attack). See cognitive dissonance for similar. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
quote: LamarkNewAge writes: and their unsupported claim that only "a few members" of the government were involved quote: Do you understand that these two sources are not in disagreement. The Joint Chiefs of Staff is about six dudes at the top of the Defense Department. You seem to diminish the original statement from "a few members of the JFKs Defense Department" to 'a few members of the government' so you can trash it with the revelation from the book you believe in. Let's not forget that in the United States, civilians control the military, and Rational Wiki correctly states that the civilians in charge dismissed the idea.
I'm not sure this rationalist site was 100% accurate in their presentation of the "false-flag" type of plans during the early 1960s. And Lemnitzer went to lead NATO within months after he left the Joint Chiefs. There are rumors I hear about something called "Operation Gladio" Sigh. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2326 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: "the book" I "believe in" is from an author that nearly went to prison in the 1980s for his first book on the NSA (Puzzle Palace). He got documents and then the Reagan administration reclassified the documents and said he wasn't allowed to even discuss them. However,his book ended up (by the late 1990s) being something of a textbook for students the CIA recruits and trains, and he became an honored person that the CIA would invite to speak before people. Very ironic. Bamford was tipped off to Northwoods while it was still classified (by somebody who was in a position to consider releasing classified material) in the mid-1990s, and he wrestled to get it released. Bamford said (in a C-Span interview) that the CIA wanted to edit and censor his book Body of Secrets before it was released (because of his unusual access in looking at things that still aren't available to the public), but he refused saying he was under no legal agreement to bend to their oversight. Anyway, how was Lemnitzer so "crazy" if he got promoted to head NATO AFTER Northwoods, as the site seemed to imply. (implication was he was just some crazy----NATO promotion ignored!) Eisenhower didn't set any trend in promoting attacks on civilians but Kennedy is the example that settles the issue? Btw, the website didn't mention Lemnitzer by name (nor his premier position), and didn't mention Eisenhower's ideas at all. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : edited to clarify that site simple mentioned a "crazy" idea but didn't detail Lemnitzer at all. no more edits.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Eisenhower didn't set any trend in promoting attacks on civilians but Kennedy is the example that settles the issue? Who said Kennedy is an example that settles the queestion? What I indicated was that the Kennedy example does not support your theory and not that it disproves your theory. You completely failed to address any of that and instead focused on a side issue. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2326 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
From the site
quote: I felt it was shifty to mention Kennedy's opposition to the plan and THEN for the site to not mention Eisenhower's support for a like-minded plan. My "theory" is that people that call themselves "skeptics" like to pick and choose what they respond to. FYI
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I felt it was shifty to mention Kennedy's opposition to the plan and THEN for the site to not mention Eisenhower's support for a like-minded plan. The RationalWiki article addressed the specific conspiracy theory that Operation Northwood was an example of evil and dismissed it appropriately as a possible counter example. I don't see the shiftiness on RW's part. Ultimately we know that Eisenhower's plan did not become reality either. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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"the book" I "believe in" is from an author that nearly went to prison in the 1980s for his first book on the NSA (Puzzle Palace). How does one nearly go to prison?
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2326 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Classified material is a very serious issue.
It isn't public domain! The penalties for possessing that material might be worse than an American in Arizona (or wherever) being found with kiddie-porn. It depends on how one got it though. The ex-post facto issue saved Bamford.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
I do know that the Watergate hearing presented us with the only evidence to date that the CIA targeted an American civilian (journalist Jack Anderson) on American soil for death. But that was a "black letter" which was against a former employee who was spilling secrets. So in 1972, the CIA was performing operations against American civilians. It isn't the "false flag" issue though it does show that both the U.S. military and CIA have targeted civilians on American soil for death. I'm not really sure what it is you are trying to convey because you haven't asked any questions. What is it that you are trying to convey? The (il)legitimacy of False Flag operations? "Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2326 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
I'm getting a little bit tired of this "the government would never think of doing anything so crazy", while the critics fail to cover all the relevant information.
I'll give 2 examples. I'll use this Northwoods coverage and the RationalWiki handling of it. Then I will show you a positive example of how a controversial issue should be handled. Understand that the 9/11 issue has many theories. The "conspiracy theories" range from the more-mild issue of "prior knowledge" (by elements involved with western intelligence agencies usually though sometimes Presidential foreknowledge is alleged) all the way to the extreme "inside job" views. And the "inside job" theories often (but not always) center around debating whether Global Hawk (ie "drone") type of technology was possibly used by NORAD and/or the CIA on 9/11. 9/11 theorists that advocate the possibility of "prior knowledge" are treated like radical extremists who are 100% absurd. But the amazing thing is that the much more extreme "9/11 drone" conspiracy theories actually do have a precedent: Operation Northwoods. (I found the full text of Bamfords pp.80-92 on the web so quotes will be easy to make. The link to Alex Jones' site is ONLY because he has the entire Bamford Northwoods text, so please don't debate me about Jones.)http://www.infowars.com/flashback-operation-northwoods/ quote: Every last word above is from the declassified U.S. document. None of it is Bamford's words! But it was quoted in his book (see the Jones link).
quote: The illegitimacy of those who ridicule people by saying "the government wouldn't think of doing such a thing to its own citizens, especially our fine one". Past plans should be looked at. Remember that the 1993 WTC attack was a "sting operation". Why wasn't that mentioned by RationalWiki? The October 28 1993 (or October 31) New York Times admitted that the Salem transcript (where he was secretly recording conversations with his FBI bosses after the Feb 26, 1993 attack) put the FBI "in a far better position to stop the attacks" than they were previously admitting. (that is a close paraphrase). Salem talked to the FBI agents about how they gave him directions on buying the explosives and where to park the truck and how bad he felt that the attack wasn't stopped (by the FBI). FBI agent Nancy Floyd didn't dispute his history but seemed to accept it as accurate. She was secretly recorded responding to Salem, "it wasn't like you didn't try" or something like that (I'm paraphrasing). Why wasn't that issue covered by RationalWiki? Here though is an example of productive criticism (this is the JFK issue. Closer Than That | The New Yorker It's a long article, and it is very critical of JFK conspiracy theorists. But it also corrects those who say that the government couldn't do such a thing (as Vince Bugliosi says). This article even admits (albeit briefly) that Oswald might have closer connections to the CIA than the government claims, and references soon to be declassified material (the George Joannides 2017 files). I'll use the New Yorker article as an example of the way things ought to be covered. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2326 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Google
Here is one of the New York Times articlesTapes Depict Proposal to Thwart Bomb Used in Trade Center Blast - The New York Times Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2326 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
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Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2326 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
EDIT Links below don't work Use THIS ONE
Tapes Depict Proposal to Thwart Bomb Used in Trade Center Blast - The New York Times (these don't work below above one works) Tapes Depict Proposal to Thwart Bomb Used in Trade ... Not Found - The New York Times-... The New York Times Oct 28, 1993 - Another agent, identified as Nancy Floyd, does not dispute Mr. Salem's account, but rather, appears to agree with it, saying of the New York ... Bomb Informer's Tapes Give Rare Glimpse of F.B.I. Dealings ... Not Found - The New York Times... The New York Times Oct 31, 1993 - "Let them give me a car to run the investigation," Mr. Salem says. .... agent, Nancy Floyd, tells a Government informer, Emad A. Salem, that she ... Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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