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Author Topic:   The Koala, Lamark and Epigenetics
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 9 of 43 (774889)
12-24-2015 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by LamarkNewAge
12-24-2015 11:08 AM


Re: Perhaps the lactose issue wasn't a good one.
But perhaps there is a Lamarkian explanation to these things.
LamarkNewAge welcome to EvC.
We have been studying biology for a couple hundred years at increasingly fine detail. We are at the stage where we observing life at the molecular level and in all that time millions of scientists have not identified any mechanism or effect that we would define as Lamarkian.
There have been no discoveries that do not fit with evolutionary theory. Think about it, not one single observation refutes evolutionary theory.
If you looked up the biology of koala and eucalyptus I think you will find that it has been studied in exquisite detail and is quite satisfactorily explained without resorting to some unknown undefined mechanism that has escaped notice before.
I'm interested in exploring the problems to Darwinian explanations and the evidence that might back up Lamarkian solutions to other issues and possibly this issue.
We have moved far beyond Darwinian explanations today. They are still important, but our understanding has been expanded considerably. Any problems to Darwinian explanations that may have existed have been thoroughly studied and corrected long ago.
Can you describe what a Lamarkian solution might be, and how it could have escaped our notice until now?

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by LamarkNewAge, posted 12-24-2015 11:08 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by LamarkNewAge, posted 12-24-2015 1:19 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 19 of 43 (774904)
12-24-2015 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by LamarkNewAge
12-24-2015 1:19 PM


Re: Perhaps the lactose issue wasn't a good one.
Well, Lamark didn't have at his disposal knowledge of Gregor Mendel nor many other developments that came out long ago,
This is true and Mendel's discoveries were at the most rudimentary level that basically showed that there was a mechanism of inheritance but no details of what that mechanism was.
so a confirmation of raw-Lamark theory wouldn't exactly be expected.
What has been confirmed is the mechanisms of evolution. We have not seen characteristics acquired during the life of an organism being passed on to offspring except where there were events that exposed genes in germ cells to changes.
The theory of Erasmus Darwin? Lamark? Or any of the early founders pre-Charles Darwin?
I think there is a misunderstanding here. I am saying that the modern Theory of Evolution includes all the knowledge about biology we have today. It does not include theories that have been shown to be invalid and there have been no observations that have been shown to be valid that refute the ToE. Not one.
Even I wouldn't go that far but I still predict Lamark will carry the day!
I know people like to root for the underdog, but what do you mean by "carry the day?" Do you mean that evolutionary theory is going to be shown to be invalid? All of it? Part of it? Based on the discovery of epigenetics?
The koala and its digestion ability is the extraordinary issue here I am interested in.
Good, maybe you will discover how it came to the state it is in now.
I have never studied koala and its digestion ability, but I predict that you will find that koala ancestral species were not as specialized as they are now and that its specialization developed over many, many generations.
I was under the impression that the discovery of epigenetics has been something of a revelation and an ongoing horizon of great scientific intrigue.
It was a very interesting discovery and I am sure it will be an ongoing subject for research in the future.
I may be wrong, but my understanding is that epigenetics refers to changes to the developmental genes of offspring caused by environmental exposure by the parent. I also understand that this is not a permanent change to the genes subsequently inherited by future descendants.
If we are going to equate Lamarkian inheritance with epigenetics, then maybe we have to say that it only lasts a generation or two.
In the meantime epigenetics is incorporated in the evolutionary explanation of life as short-term genetic changes (mutations) that do not affect the long-term phylogenetics of a lineage.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by LamarkNewAge, posted 12-24-2015 1:19 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by LamarkNewAge, posted 12-24-2015 2:47 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 21 of 43 (774908)
12-24-2015 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by LamarkNewAge
12-24-2015 2:47 PM


Re: ..
But many of my quotes centered around you changing the subject from the issue of general evolution to the issue of Lamarkian-type evolution to Darwinian evolution in a somewhat chaotic way.
Sorry I was not clear.....sitting in the car waiting for my wife to finish Xmas shopping.
I'm just saying that a heck of a lot is still to be discovered. Disagree with that?
Nope, I agree totally. That is the best part about science, it is never finished.
We can all agree on that. However, I would suggest that the biological evolution issue will also be subject to enormous revisions.
I agree that there are many discoveries still to be made in the field of evolutionary biology and they will be incorporated into the theory as they are understood.
If you mean by "subject to enormous revisions" that major parts of the ToE are going to be replaced, then I have to disagree.
The theory will be expanded in the future, but the principles that it is based on have been confirmed by many thousands (maybe millions) of observations and experiments. The theory makes predictions that have been confirmed.
In its entirety, the Theory of Biological Evolution is a description of all of biology. It does not consist of speculations unsupported by evidence or wild-assed guesses. It is a description of reality, or as close as we can get, because otherwise what use would it be?

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by LamarkNewAge, posted 12-24-2015 2:47 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

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 Message 23 by RAZD, posted 12-24-2015 4:33 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(1)
Message 25 of 43 (774913)
12-24-2015 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by RAZD
12-24-2015 4:43 PM


Re: learned behavior aka memes
In the case of mammals, there are plenty of more conventional methods for passing along information. Mammals tend to spend time hanging out with mama which means that behavioral information can be passed on by teaching/learning.
Indeed, and if such teaching/learning fails in one generation, it is lost.
Without language such things can only be taught through demonstration.
Birds do a lot of training also, and apparently with some birds like crows and parrots vocalization is also involved.
I am most fascinated by complex behaviors that are programmed into the genes of insects. They seem to work as cascade effects where a stimulus triggers a series sensory signals and behaviors. Many of these behaviors seem to be similar to complex "if > then" loops in computer programs. When I am in the field with other Odonatists we endlessly discuss dragonfly behavior and how it is programmed.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by RAZD, posted 12-24-2015 4:43 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by RAZD, posted 12-31-2015 10:38 AM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
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