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Author Topic:   With a dying white race, why are we not encouraging more white births?
Omnivorous
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Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 166 of 237 (774962)
12-25-2015 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Faith
12-25-2015 4:04 PM


Birth rates fall in industrializing countries due to many reasons, including improved infant survival, access to effective birth control and the rural-to-urban movement of populations. The education of women, in particular, closely correlates with falling birth rates.
I don't know anyone who limited family size due to Malthus. Certainly, stagnant incomes have made large families difficult. Economies that necessitate two income households have also inhibited family size.
Most past migrant families in the U.S. were large, a custom which changes over generations: Chinese, Italian, Irish, Dutch, German....
Hasidic Jews and 'Quiver Full' evangelicals have ultra-large families and look to gain political clout from them. The Amish go big--for the farms?--and seem unconcerned about votes.
You worry too much about the oddest things.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Faith, posted 12-25-2015 4:04 PM Faith has replied

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 Message 168 by Faith, posted 12-25-2015 5:16 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 167 of 237 (774963)
12-25-2015 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Coyote
12-25-2015 4:27 PM


Re: Question on the OP
I'm sure all that is true but as far as this thread goes it just adds to the confusion. GIA started the confusion by making the "white race" into a genetic group, attributing the cultural achievements of Europeans (which is what I suppose he means) to genetics when it's got nothing to do with racial genetics anyway.
You can talk about the achievements of western civilization but that isn't about race. And of course I attribute those achievements to the Christian religion, at least the Christian religion since the Reformation. But GIA hates Christianity so he's got his head tied in a knot about the whole subject in my opinion.
But if you stick to the simple common meaning of "white race" as we casually -- and officially -- use the term, he's right that "whites" are declining in numbers and as I said in another post I think that's due to the big scare about overpopulation that got the more highly educated and non-Catholic "whites" to be good citizens and cut down on their own population.
Which does happen to mean reducing the cultural influences that built western civilization too because it just so happens they are linked. So Reformation Christianity is dying out however you look at it, and other "races" or cultures are growing in influence. Not for the good of anything in my opinion of course.
Not that you'll accept my interpretation of any of this either but oh well.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 165 by Coyote, posted 12-25-2015 4:27 PM Coyote has replied

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 Message 172 by Coyote, posted 12-25-2015 9:14 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 168 of 237 (774964)
12-25-2015 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Omnivorous
12-25-2015 5:06 PM


I thought I was just adding my view to the mix, not "worrying" about anything. I happen to remember the push about overpopulation and I know it influenced people in my immediate circle, and I remember an attitude of moral indignation that anyone would have more than two children, so I extrapolate from that. Abortion of course contributed to the reduction, but that also affected the black population, perhaps even more, I'm not sure. And no doubt other factors you mention. Doesn't change what I said though, about the attitude among "whites."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Omnivorous, posted 12-25-2015 5:06 PM Omnivorous has replied

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 Message 169 by Omnivorous, posted 12-25-2015 5:31 PM Faith has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 169 of 237 (774966)
12-25-2015 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Faith
12-25-2015 5:16 PM


Well, I guess my working class origins were quasi-white, because nobody gave a damn about overpopulation or had heard of Malthus. You must have moved in rarefied circles of global conscience.
You have noted disparate birth rates with concern previously. I'd say it's fair to call that worry.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 12-25-2015 5:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Faith, posted 12-25-2015 6:28 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
Admin
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Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
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Message 170 of 237 (774968)
12-25-2015 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Greatest I am
12-25-2015 12:13 PM


Re: Moderator Provided Information
Hi Greatest I am,
Two points:
  1. You're replying to my Message 35 where I pointed out that the greatest human genetic diversity resides in the continent of Africa. If you'd like to rebut this then please do not rely upon bare links and bald declarations. Please follow the Forum Guidelines:
    1. Bare links with no supporting discussion should be avoided. Make the argument in your own words and use links as supporting references.
  2. You posted a sequence of extremely brief replies that quoted nothing from the messages you were replying to (making your responses difficult to understand), and that contained only bare links and/or bald declarations. Please follow the Forum Guidelines:
    1. Points should be supported with evidence and reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration. Avoid bare assertions.
This is a debate/discussion thread, not a "declare my position" thread. Continuing in this way will bring suspensions.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 171 of 237 (774969)
12-25-2015 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Omnivorous
12-25-2015 5:31 PM


My origins were working class too, but I moved up in the world I suppose, which is where I encountered the attitude I'm talking about. I guess we could argue about what had the biggest influence but I think GIA is right that there's a general decline in the population of the "white race" somehow or other, and it seems to me the overpopulation theory has other sources, not just my memory. But whatever, I don't suppose we could prove anything about it one way or the other.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Omnivorous, posted 12-25-2015 5:31 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Omnivorous, posted 12-25-2015 11:09 PM Faith has replied
 Message 177 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-26-2015 1:16 AM Faith has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 172 of 237 (774975)
12-25-2015 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Faith
12-25-2015 5:06 PM


Re: Question on the OP
I'm sure all that is true but as far as this thread goes it just adds to the confusion. GIA started the confusion by making the "white race" into a genetic group, attributing the cultural achievements of Europeans (which is what I suppose he means) to genetics when it's got nothing to do with racial genetics anyway.
I think you're correct. His "white" is probably equivalent to Europeans as defined by anthropologist Stanley Garn.
You can talk about the achievements of western civilization but that isn't about race. And of course I attribute those achievements to the Christian religion, at least the Christian religion since the Reformation. But GIA hates Christianity so he's got his head tied in a knot about the whole subject in my opinion.
True, it isn't about race. Not true about Christianity. The beginnings of western culture were in Greece, hundreds of years before Christianity. It can also be argued that Christianity helped bring about the Dark Ages. And, it is little known that the Arab world was the center of science and culture for quite a period while Europe was in the Dark Ages. This period lasted until fundamentalism took over there. That was about the same time the Renaissance was beginning in Europe, and the Renaissance was based in large part on documents preserved in the Arab/Persian world (such as the writings of Aristotle) or created in there and then translated into Latin and other European languages. This preserved knowledge was a major impetus for the Renaissance.
But if you stick to the simple common meaning of "white race" as we casually -- and officially -- use the term, he's right that "whites" are declining in numbers and as I said in another post I think that's due to the big scare about overpopulation that got the more highly educated and non-Catholic "whites" to be good citizens and cut down on their own population.
True, but it is not a matter of race. It is a matter of culture. In much of the western world increasing prosperity and the vastly increased percentage of people in cities vs. on the farm doing subsistence agriculture led to a decline in the number of children. Russia is seeing similar reductions in the birth rate, but there may be other causes at work there.
Which does happen to mean reducing the cultural influences that built western civilization too because it just so happens they are linked. So Reformation Christianity is dying out however you look at it, and other "races" or cultures are growing in influence. Not for the good of anything in my opinion of course.
Multiculturalism is diluting western civilization in part because incoming groups are not assimilated as quickly as they once were. But the issue is much larger than that, as our country is increasingly seeing Balkanization of people and groups who were born here. Inner cities are one example. Decades ago young people typically were drafted into the Army and were both shown the world and exposed to other ways of life in this country--a major socialization factor. That socialization is no longer present.
Not that you'll accept my interpretation of any of this either but oh well.
I don't reject your interpretations out of hand--only when they lack logic, facts, and/or common sense. Otherwise, I agree with you completely.
For example, I agree completely on this -- Merry Christmas!

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Faith, posted 12-25-2015 5:06 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Faith, posted 12-26-2015 1:02 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 173 of 237 (774977)
12-25-2015 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Faith
12-25-2015 6:28 PM


Faith writes:
GIA is right that there's a general decline in the population of the "white race" somehow or other.
We aren't riding an expansionary wave of imperialism, true, but I think that's nice.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Faith, posted 12-25-2015 6:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 12-25-2015 11:51 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 174 of 237 (774978)
12-25-2015 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Omnivorous
12-25-2015 11:09 PM


I read somewhere recently that the decline in Europe's white population is an argument in favor of importing lots of Muslims to replace them.

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LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 175 of 237 (774981)
12-26-2015 12:52 AM


I havn't read 99% of posts yet.
But I think I have an idea of what is being said. Understand that the public-domain history books (even to this day, everything after 1923 is under "copyright protections" thanks to congress and a worthless Supreme Court), that many have read, are out of date on India, Iran, China, etc. (much worse in the case of the former). Needless to say, older generations of Americans were exposed to very out of date material.
We now know that India had 25%-33% of the worlds GDP/GNP on the eve of the British Empire (1750). China also have about 50% of the world's GDP by around 1800. This was even AFTER (long after) Genghis Khan destroyed Asia, and after the European Renaissance.
India invented Algebra and Chess, China invented books (in the modern sense, though with ink stamps and not movable press). India and Iran are the origin of most of what would make up Christianity (Heaven, Hell, Judgment Day, Afterlife, Satan, etc. And that's just what is certain).
The Egyptian Sphynx dates no later than 2500 BCE and possibly as early as 4000 BCE. Regardless of the date, it has a pure black African face. Detective Frank Domingo of New York is an expert in facial recognition and a June 27, 1992 New York Times article mentioned his discovery. An Orthodontist, Sheldon Peck, wrote a letter to The New York Times in early July 1992 and said that he noticed the same thing about the Sphynx-- independently. (This isn't "black nationalist" Nation of Islam conspiracy b.s. either. If you learn about those who discovered/funded these investigations, then you will know that they agree with the Egyptologists standard views on the racial mix of dynastic Egyptians. The burial remains show that the average ancient Egyptian was 39% black and 61% Mediterranean and that was true of both the rich and poor. Even today Egypt has the exact same mix.)
There are undeciphered written records in the Harrapa Culture phase of India (in modern Pakistan) which have carbon dates of 3251 BCE. using tree-ring calibration (when carbon dates say 3251 BCE then it tends to be around BCE 2925-2950 in actuality though, so don't be confused into thinking they are oldest written records. The 3100 BCE Egyptian and Sumerian writings are in contexts that carbon-date to about 3450-3500 BCE.) Mohenjo-Darro is the famous and impressive Harrapan site that many used to think belonged to the Aryan invaders, but actually predated the invasions by a good while.
There are un-deciphered Elamite writing's that carbon date before 3000 BCE.
I doubt that more than a small percentage of the lighter skinned central-Asians (who have a visible presence today) came to India & Iran by the time of the Harrapan culture. The Aryans are said to have come after 2000 BCE, but even if they came earlier then it is still clear that India, Pakistan, and Iran were much darker 5000 years ago than today.
Here is a 16 page article by the right-wing neo-con City Journal of New York, and even it mentions how much worse off the British Empire made India
The Indian Century?: Education, entrepreneurialism, and democratic institutions bode well for the country’s futurebut profound challenges remain. | City Journal
The article reminds me of something else though. Not only are we ignorant of the fact that very dark (even "black" African) people were way AHEAD "of the curve", when one understands the historical evidence, but even the modern situation (where darker peoples are much poorer) isn't always as bad as it seems. India had an average per capita income of about $300 per person in 1998. It just went up to $1,631 in 2014 and I suspect it will be about $1800 at the end of 2015. BUT. BUT. In pale Ukraine, the average income is only around $3000 per person (Poland used to be just as bad off but joined the EU in 2004 and now the average Pole makes about $10,000 per year).
The May 2013 census numbers came in around May of 2015 and showed that the 3.6 million Indian Americans were the first group ever to make $100,000 per year average (or median).
So even the modern situation (where evidence of whites higher wealth is used as prime evidence) isn't as crystal clear as many David Duke followers feel that it is. I think the historical evidence should be the decisive factor to look at though.
(and David Duke types used to say that Chinese-type orientals were only smart when they had a higher percentage of white/Central Asian blood in them. I suppose that was when the average Chinese made only $300 per year in 1990 and about $600 per year in 1996 and about $1000 per year in 2000. Now the average Chinese make $8000 per year in 2015, and that is higher than most central Asian nations. It's higher than many if not most Eastern European nations. The highest SAT scores in the USA come from Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans so it seems that the lighter-skinned Japanese aren't smarter than the "cockroaches" in Korea and China, huh?)

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Greatest I am, posted 12-26-2015 12:03 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 176 of 237 (774983)
12-26-2015 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Coyote
12-25-2015 9:14 PM


Re: Question on the OP
You can talk about the achievements of western civilization but that isn't about race. And of course I attribute those achievements to the Christian religion, at least the Christian religion since the Reformation. But GIA hates Christianity so he's got his head tied in a knot about the whole subject in my opinion.
True, it isn't about race. Not true about Christianity. The beginnings of western culture were in Greece, hundreds of years before Christianity.
People say that but the culture of Greece disappeared completely in Europe until the Renaissance, had no part at all in the formation of European culture to that point.
It can also be argued that Christianity helped bring about the Dark Ages.
Roman Catholicism DID bring about the Dark Ages, by usurping power over the various nations, suppressing the Bible and substituting its ridiculous pagan superstitions. It was the influence of the Bible after the Reformation that built up Western Civilization. The Renaissance had some influence as the ancient pagan writings were made available, but the Bible is what encouraged the orderly society that made for prosperity, and certainly the prosperity of America.
And, it is little known that the Arab world was the center of science and culture for quite a period while Europe was in the Dark Ages.
That too is a bit of politically correct revisionist history. The Arab science was limited to Spain and really didn't have anything to do with the development of empirical observational experimental science that was based on the Reformation view of the God of the Bible.
This period lasted until fundamentalism took over there. That was about the same time the Renaissance was beginning in Europe, and the Renaissance was based in large part on documents preserved in the Arab/Persian world (such as the writings of Aristotle) or created in there and then translated into Latin and other European languages. This preserved knowledge was a major impetus for the Renaissance.
Yes the Renaissance had some influence but this too is mostly revisionist history to put the real influence of the Reformation in the shade. Aristotle for instance was elevated in Roman Catholicism to the point that priests were deprived of the Bible and read nothing but that pagan philosopher. It wasn't Catholicism with its pagan philosophy and superstitions that made the west the great success it became, it was Protestantism. Certainly the case in America. Why are so many trying to escape the Catholic countries South of us? Because the Catholic influence does not develop prosperous orderly societies like the U.S.
But if you stick to the simple common meaning of "white race" as we casually -- and officially -- use the term, he's right that "whites" are declining in numbers and as I said in another post I think that's due to the big scare about overpopulation that got the more highly educated and non-Catholic "whites" to be good citizens and cut down on their own population.
True, but it is not a matter of race. It is a matter of culture. In much of the western world increasing prosperity and the vastly increased percentage of people in cities vs. on the farm doing subsistence agriculture led to a decline in the number of children. Russia is seeing similar reductions in the birth rate, but there may be other causes at work there.
All that probably plays a part I'm sure. But yes it is a matter of culture. The main difference in the west that improved our culture was Protestantism. It's dying out now so we should be seeing a major decline in all areas, which I think we are. Economic crash coming up they say.
Which does happen to mean reducing the cultural influences that built western civilization too because it just so happens they are linked. So Reformation Christianity is dying out however you look at it, and other "races" or cultures are growing in influence. Not for the good of anything in my opinion of course.
Multiculturalism is diluting western civilization in part because incoming groups are not assimilated as quickly as they once were.
And some absolutely refuse to assimilate, and that's because we allow it because we're poisoned by the philosophy of multiculturalism which is major Political Correctness designed to undermine the west.
But the issue is much larger than that, as our country is increasingly seeing Balkanization of people and groups who were born here. Inner cities are one example. Decades ago young people typically were drafted into the Army and were both shown the world and exposed to other ways of life in this country--a major socialization factor. That socialization is no longer present.
I'm sure there are lots of influences but I think the main thing is that the west grew great on the basis of Biblical Christianity and now that anti-Christian influences are taking over (including tons of revisionist history foisted on our education system for almost a century now) we're headed for major destruction.
Not that you'll accept my interpretation of any of this either but oh well.
I don't reject your interpretations out of hand--only when they lack logic, facts, and/or common sense. Otherwise, I agree with you completely.
We could argue over which of us that describes of course.
And I hope you had a Merry Christmas too!

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 Message 172 by Coyote, posted 12-25-2015 9:14 PM Coyote has not replied

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 Message 188 by LamarkNewAge, posted 12-26-2015 7:18 AM Faith has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 177 of 237 (774984)
12-26-2015 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Faith
12-25-2015 6:28 PM


I think GIA is right that there's a general decline in the population of the "white race" somehow or other
But what does it matter either way if race is so nebulous? Race is only extant because of thousands of years separation, where distinct features formed in the absence of genetic diversity (don't worry, that comports with microevolutionary beliefs, so there should be no contention).
And what does it all mean? If blacks and Asians were procreating with one another, does every subsequent generation lose their black identity or their Asian identity as a result? Which race is necessarily absorbed by the other? If you are a biracial person from black and Asian ancestry, do you necessarily become grandfathered in as black or Asian? Or are you just a person?
The same question applies with anything else. If a German Caucasian procreates with an Irish Caucasian, which heritage is that child sacrificing? Are they necessarily losing their Germanness or their Irishness as a result?
If everybody is intermingling racial lines, why is it that only "white people" are losing their identity? That's what GIA fails to understand or explain.
Hell, we could even simplify. If a German Shepherd mates with a Doberman, what kind of breed does the resulting puppy belong to?

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Faith, posted 12-25-2015 6:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Faith, posted 12-26-2015 1:49 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 178 of 237 (774986)
12-26-2015 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by Hyroglyphx
12-26-2015 1:16 AM


Not sure why you are addressing that post to me since I already said I don't think race is the issue, rather it's about culture in relation to what I think is GIA's real concern, which is the success of western civilization. I also said as far as race goes there is a casual definition of the "white race" that we can all identify so your specifics are really irrelevant. And I've many times discussed the concept of race in terms of microevolution, just FYI.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-26-2015 1:16 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

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 Message 179 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-26-2015 1:55 AM Faith has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 179 of 237 (774987)
12-26-2015 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Faith
12-26-2015 1:49 AM


Not sure why you are addressing that post to me since I already said I don't think race is the issue, rather it's about culture in relation to what I think is GIA's real concern, which is the success of western civilization.
I was addressing your comment that you thought he was right about the decline of the white population. And to be clear, those questions are mostly directed to him but he wasn't around to answer them.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Faith, posted 12-26-2015 1:49 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Faith, posted 12-26-2015 2:27 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 180 of 237 (774988)
12-26-2015 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Hyroglyphx
12-26-2015 1:55 AM


I was talking to Coyote, not GIA.
Well, there is such a decline, simply defining the white race in the casual terms I mentioned. We don't need technical terms to define it. "Europeans" will suffice as a synonym, and we're talking essentially about European culture, not race anyway. However, just speaking of race according to the usual casual understanding, there's plenty of information out there about the changing racial percentages. Here's one I just turned up: The New Republic
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-26-2015 1:55 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-26-2015 2:38 AM Faith has replied

  
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