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Author Topic:   Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality.
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 46 of 478 (775046)
12-26-2015 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Faith
12-18-2015 11:46 AM


Faith
I do my fathers will and not my own.
Why have you forsaken me?
Jesus said to seek God and never said seek me.
What does that tell you?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 12-18-2015 11:46 AM Faith has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 47 of 478 (775047)
12-26-2015 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Admin
12-18-2015 11:50 AM


Re: Moderator Provided Information
Admin
A good definition that does not really apply since Jesus supposedly knew that he would not really die.
Your definition does not include reincarnation or reanimation.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Admin, posted 12-18-2015 11:50 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by GDR, posted 12-27-2015 9:09 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 48 of 478 (775091)
12-27-2015 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Greatest I am
12-26-2015 1:12 PM


Re: Moderator Provided Information
GIA writes:
A good definition that does not really apply since Jesus supposedly knew that he would not really die.
I'll quote this but I'll also reply more generally. You are arguing against those like Faith that have long ago given up listening to what Jesus said and did in order to argue for an inerrant Bible.The problem is that this is a tradition that grew out of the reformation and essentially has done away with the worship of the Jesus of the Gospels in order to worship an inerrant Bible.
The Gospel of John tells about the Word or Wisdom of God which existed before all things and brought about all things. He goes on to say that this Word or Wisdom became flesh. In other words Jesus perfectly embodied the true nature and will of God. This is quite different than the idea of stating simply that Jesus is God, as obviously it begs the question of just who He was praying to. Praying to oneself doesn't make a lot of sense.
You stated that supposedly Jesus knew He wasn't going to die. I suggest that when He went into Jerusalem He did it knowing that He would die because He knew full well what the response of those in power would be with those who did what He was about to do. His message angered every power group in the country. His allies were the the weak and helpless, the prostitutes, the hated tax collectors etc. He prayed that it wouldn't be the Father's will for Him to have to go through with it.
However, through prayer and through His understanding of the Hebrew scriptures he believed that this is what He had to do and that somehow God would in the end use this sacrifice for the good of the world. The point is that He went to His death as an act of faith, not with any certainty of His resurrection. Any other belief denies His humanity and belittles the enormity of what He was doing.
His divinity comes through His embodiment of the Word of God and by extension the embodiment of the return of Yahweh to His people. It was the resurrection of Jesus by the Father that affirmed and vindicated the life and message of Jesus and it was God the Father, the Ancient if Days that enthroned Jesus.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Greatest I am, posted 12-26-2015 1:12 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 12-28-2015 3:22 AM GDR has replied
 Message 51 by PaulK, posted 12-28-2015 5:00 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 102 by Greatest I am, posted 12-30-2015 11:20 AM GDR has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 49 of 478 (775092)
12-28-2015 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by GDR
12-27-2015 9:09 PM


Re: Moderator Provided Information
It's not right of you to misrepresent me, GDR. You know very well that I strenuously disagree with the slanderous statement that I worship the Bible. You, however, since you discard parts of the Bible you don't happen to like, discarding parts of God's own revelation to us -- all of it, every part of it His revelation to us, our only source of knowledge of the things of God-- that means you can only be following a Jesus of your own invention rather than the true Jesus revealed in God's word. Jesus was and is God incarnate and He knew He would die and He knew why, because it was determined at the foundation of the world, and He was there, and He did die, bearing the sins of those who believe on Him so that we do not have to bear the eternal punishment they deserve.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by GDR, posted 12-27-2015 9:09 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 12-28-2015 8:45 AM Faith has replied
 Message 55 by GDR, posted 12-28-2015 10:44 AM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 50 of 478 (775093)
12-28-2015 3:54 AM


I do find it odd that two devout believers in the same book can disagree so strongly about what it means. Given that this is supposed to be the most important story ever told and to be the actual word of God, how come it wasn't written in a way that Is impossible to disagree about? It supposedly had a purpose - to save us - and it was so important to God that He sent he son to give us this Word so how come it's such tosh that anyone can make anything they like up about it?
Of course neither GDR nor Faith are making up their own stories, they're simply regurgitating stories about the bible that have been refined for centuries by various apologists and have chosen their preferred interpretations. But both apparently have them confirmed by God himself through prayer.
An disinterested observer of all this would be asking himself how they can reconcile these things.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 12-28-2015 9:37 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 56 by GDR, posted 12-28-2015 11:25 AM Tangle has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 51 of 478 (775096)
12-28-2015 5:00 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by GDR
12-27-2015 9:09 PM


Faith doesn't worship the Bible
She worships men who twist and misrepresent the Bible, as she has often demonstrated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by GDR, posted 12-27-2015 9:09 PM GDR has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 52 of 478 (775100)
12-28-2015 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
12-28-2015 3:22 AM


The Christmas Revolution
I saw a good article in the NY Times.
The Christmas Revolution
Check it out and tell me what you think, Faith. (and everyone else)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 12-28-2015 3:22 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Faith, posted 12-28-2015 9:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 57 by kbertsche, posted 12-28-2015 11:52 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 12-28-2015 2:16 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 53 of 478 (775102)
12-28-2015 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Tangle
12-28-2015 3:54 AM


I do find it odd that two devout believers in the same book can disagree so strongly about what it means. Given that this is supposed to be the most important story ever told and to be the actual word of God, how come it wasn't written in a way that Is impossible to disagree about?
Um, it's human fallibility, not the book, that is at fault in this regard. GDR simply doesn't like parts of the Bible, that's GDR's, not the Bible's fault. But in general, the very idea of any writing that couldn't be disagreed about in this world is pretty funny really.
It supposedly had a purpose - to save us - and it was so important to God that He sent he son to give us this Word so how come it's such tosh that anyone can make anything they like up about it?
That same Bible tells us we're fallen, sin-prone, not hard to see how such a creature would be willing to change things around to suit himself, even God's own word. Once you've decided to ignore parts of the Bible you can't very well claim to be committed to it as God's word.
Of course neither GDR nor Faith are making up their own stories, they're simply regurgitating stories about the bible that have been refined for centuries by various apologists and have chosen their preferred interpretations. But both apparently have them confirmed by God himself through prayer.
Well, GDR's reading comes from a very liberal recent line of thought, in fact one particular theologian he happens to like, Somebody Wright. I can of course say I stick to the traditionalists who go back first to the Reformation and then by a more circuitous route (due to the corruptions of Roman Catholicism) to the Apostles, which to my mind has more validity than the thought of a recent revisionist, but nothing I say is going to convince anyone who has a mind not to be convinced.
An disinterested observer of all this would be asking himself how they can reconcile these things.
A truly disinterested observer would have to study the situation in great depth to have any chance of getting it right, but outsiders are usually content with superficial impressions.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Tangle, posted 12-28-2015 3:54 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 54 of 478 (775103)
12-28-2015 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Phat
12-28-2015 8:45 AM


Re: The Christmas Revolution
I skimmed it, will try to get back to it later. It looks good, very true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 12-28-2015 8:45 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 55 of 478 (775104)
12-28-2015 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
12-28-2015 3:22 AM


Re: Moderator Provided Information
Faith writes:
It's not right of you to misrepresent me, GDR. You know very well that I strenuously disagree with the slanderous statement that I worship the Bible. You, however, since you discard parts of the Bible you don't happen to like, discarding parts of God's own revelation to us -- all of it, every part of it His revelation to us, our only source of knowledge of the things of God-- that means you can only be following a Jesus of your own invention rather than the true Jesus revealed in God's word
I know you disagree Faith but the most obvious example is the fact that you can reconcile the belief that Jesus taught that we are to love our enemy, turn the other cheek and that our weapon against evil is love with the idea that Yahweh commanded genocide and public stoning for petty offences such as pick up firewood on the Sabbath. Those positions are irreconcilable.
You put your faith in the Bible ahead of your faith in Jesus.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 12-28-2015 3:22 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 12-28-2015 12:06 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(2)
Message 56 of 478 (775109)
12-28-2015 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Tangle
12-28-2015 3:54 AM


Tangle writes:
I do find it odd that two devout believers in the same book can disagree so strongly about what it means. Given that this is supposed to be the most important story ever told and to be the actual word of God, how come it wasn't written in a way that Is impossible to disagree about? It supposedly had a purpose - to save us - and it was so important to God that He sent he son to give us this Word so how come it's such tosh that anyone can make anything they like up about it?
Of course neither GDR nor Faith are making up their own stories, they're simply regurgitating stories about the bible that have been refined for centuries by various apologists and have chosen their preferred interpretations. But both apparently have them confirmed by God himself through prayer.
An disinterested observer of all this would be asking himself how they can reconcile these things.
Humans like certainty. I agree that there is no certainty within Christianity or within any other faith. From a Christian perspective it is the view that God wants us to freely choose the very basic message that can be seen in my signature. If there was certainty then we would lose the ability to freely choose by knowing that we will be rewarded for behaving in a certain manner. It is about having hearts that love our neighbour as ourselves and through that choice care for the planet and all life on it.
I know this was discussed in another thread recently, but all religion is man made. Religions are theistic attempts to understand the nature of god(s) and what our response to that nature should be. In the majority of cases the response has been to figure out how to get this god to conform to our desires.
The message that we see espoused by Jesus is that we are to serve God by serving His creation. This is often not the case in the OT where it was usually about trying to follow a set of laws in order to get Yahweh to be with them in defeating their enemies and putting them in power over other nations.
It is my contention that with Faith's views that it is all about getting our belief system in line so that we are rewarded with eternal life with God. It is the carrot on the end of the stick approach with I contend is fundamentally opposite to the message of Jesus again. Fundamentalism is a modern version of the approach taken by the Pharisees of Jesus' day.
I understand the Bible to be the "word" of God with Jesus being the "Word" of God. The Bible is a library of books with no doubt hundreds of authors. It is a history of man's understanding of God slowly being refined over the centuries until it comes to a climax in Jesus where we see God's true nature being fully revealed and that is confirmed by God resurrecting Jesus.
I believe that God's nature and purposes are revealed in the Bible and that He speaks to our minds and hearts through the written word. It is a tool used by God to change people's hearts.
We all have a world view based on somet belief. None of us have certainty that the basis for our world view is accurate. We have people who spend their lives in service to others at their own expense and we have people who spend their lives serving themselves at other expense. If we had certainty that serving others was really about serving ourselves then then it is again all about us. Again, as per my signature, God wants us to humbly love kindness and justice. In the end it is all about the heart.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Tangle, posted 12-28-2015 3:54 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 12-28-2015 12:41 PM GDR has replied
 Message 62 by Tangle, posted 12-28-2015 2:04 PM GDR has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2132 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 57 of 478 (775110)
12-28-2015 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Phat
12-28-2015 8:45 AM


Re: The Christmas Revolution
Phat writes:
Check it out and tell me what you think, Faith. (and everyone else)
Looks pretty good to me.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 12-28-2015 8:45 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 58 of 478 (775112)
12-28-2015 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by GDR
12-28-2015 10:44 AM


misrepresentation
First, it is not right to characterize my beliefs according to your opinion without noting that I see it completely differently.
I know you disagree Faith but the most obvious example is the fact that you can reconcile the belief that Jesus taught that we are to love our enemy, turn the other cheek and that our weapon against evil is love with the idea that Yahweh commanded genocide and public stoning for petty offences such as pick up firewood on the Sabbath. Those positions are irreconcilable.
This is completely wrong. You misread the Bible. The OT also wants us to be kind to our fellow man. You simply refuse to accept that God Himself has the right to JUDGE SIN. He uses nations for that purpose sometimes, and He used His own nation for that purpose sometimes, but He also used foreign nations to punish His own nation. People who understand the Bible also believe that the Civil War was God's judgment on America for slavery, and many other examples could be suggested. What you call "genocide" is God's judgment of a whole nation for their collective sins, which had accumulated over hundreds of years. We are supposed to understand this as a revelation of judgment to come, and of Hell. Without these realities there would have been no reason for Jesus to die for us.
If you had any respect to God's word you wouldn't trivialize anything in it as you do. Picking up firewood on the Sabbath was a terrible violation of God's command that no work is to be done on the Sabbath. Picking up firewood on the Sabbath is an act of faithlessness toward God who promised to take care of the people through the Sabbath without their resorting to fleshly means. He also promised to preserve the manna through the Sabbath. Such an act of disbelief corrupts the entire meaning of the Sabbath, which is a picture of the rest believers look forward to through Christ. Not to punish this act of faithlessness would corrupt all the people's trust in God's commands.
You put your faith in the Bible ahead of your faith in Jesus.
That happens to be a lie. You understand nothing.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by GDR, posted 12-28-2015 10:44 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by GDR, posted 12-28-2015 12:48 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 127 by Aussie, posted 12-31-2015 12:56 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 59 of 478 (775113)
12-28-2015 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by GDR
12-28-2015 11:25 AM


Sometimes I agree with you about this or that, but I don't think there's anything in this post of yours that I agree with.
No, all religions are not man-made. Biblical religion is God-made.
Serving the creation is right, of course, but our service of God is to be primarily worshiping Him in spirit and in truth. He Himself is our "exceeding great reward" as He told Abraham.
Your idea of the OT is so off-base it is hard to know where to start to answer you. Maybe I'll leave it for now.
What you call "fundamentalism" is nothing other than obeying God's word as He wrote it. You with your works-righteousness have more in common with the Pharisees than fundamentalists do.
You say the Bible was given to teach and change us but you obviously don't believe that since you only obey the parts that appeal to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by GDR, posted 12-28-2015 11:25 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by GDR, posted 12-28-2015 1:30 PM Faith has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(2)
Message 60 of 478 (775114)
12-28-2015 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Faith
12-28-2015 12:06 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Faith writes:
First, it is not right to characterize my beliefs according to your opinion without noting that I see it completely differently.
First off, the very first words I used were that "I know you disagree". Secondly of course I am expressing my opinion just as you express your opinion about what I believe.
Faith writes:
This is completely wrong. You misread the Bible. The OT also wants us to be kind to our fellow man. You simply refuse to accept that God Himself has the right to JUDGE SIN. He uses nations for that purpose sometimes, and He used His own nation for that purpose sometimes, but He also used foreign nations to punish His own nation. People who understand the Bible also believe that the Civil War was God's judgment on America for slavery, and many other examples could be suggested. What you call "genocide" is God's judgment of a whole nation for their collective sins, which had accumulated over hundreds of years. We are supposed to understand this as a revelation of judgment to come, and of Hell. Without these realities there would have been no reason for Jesus to die for us.
If you had any respect to God's word you wouldn't trivialize anything in it as you do. Picking up firewood on the Sabbath was a terrible violation of God's command that no work is to be done on the Sabbath. Picking up firewood on the Sabbath is an act of faithlessness toward God who promised to take care of the people through the Sabbath without their resorting to fleshly means. He also promised to preserve the manna through the Sabbath. Such an act of disbelief corrupts the entire meaning of the Sabbath, which is a picture of the rest believers look forward to through Christ. Not to punish this act of faithlessness would corrupt all the people's trust in God's commands.
You just continue to make my point Faith. You are able to reconcile a belief in a deity that would tell the people whose job it is to reflect His love to the world but that they are to go out and slaughter the men, women and children of another community. We can see today the damage being done with PTSD to those who we send out to participate in our various wars. Your god would send out the people he loves to participate in these slaughters and then come home, unmoved by this mass slaughter, and then lead lives of love and kindness to their fellow man.
You suggest that God was responsible for the civil war in your country. How about the suffering and death of those who opposed slavery all along. How about the Christian approach taken by Wiberforce in Britain who facilitated the end of slavery there without the slaughter of the US Civil War. Do you really think that God would lead those in Britain to end slavery without bloodshed but would use a particularly brutal civil war that turned brother against brother in the US to end it?
As far as judgement is concerned, here is what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 4. "5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God."
Paul understands it to be about the motive's of men's hearts. It isn't for us to judge. Christianity is not about worrying about who is in and who is out. It is about following Jesus and reflecting the love of His and our Father into God's good creation, and God confirmed that by resurrecting Jesus.
Faith writes:
That happens to be a lie. You understand nothing.
That's helpful. My opinion may be wrong but that doesn't make it a lie.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 12-28-2015 12:06 PM Faith has not replied

  
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